S2E11 - The Mandalorian Got a BAD RAP with PINJAMIN

Why is the Mandalorian trending at less than $5k on Pinside? Why is there so much hate for a game with such a massive fan loved license? We jump on with collector PINJAMIN to discuss why the Mandalorian got a bad rap and why maybe it deserves another chance in your collection or arcade!

George's Info:
Twitch: https://twitch.tv/dontpanicflip
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/dontpanicflip
Email: george@dontpanicflip.com

Paul's Info:
Twitch: https://twitch.tv/bumpernugget
Email: pckardell@gmail.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Basement Dad's Pinball Podcast.

SPEAKER_05 0:23

Welcome to Baseman Dad's Pinball Podcast, where we talk everything entertainment that's comic books, boring board games, mediocre music, and of course, trash pinball. I'm Extra Paul, and I've got George and Ben here too. We'll be your hosts for this episode. So hold on to your banisters, kids, because we got a heck of a show for you. This is our second installment of Bad Rap, where we discussed a specific modern pinball game that didn't live up to the hype. So The Mandalorian. When the show first came out, it was amazing. Then the pinball machine was released, and the series has never recovered. Why is Brian Eddy's design solely responsible for ruining the entire Star Wars universe?

SPEAKER_03 1:13

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 1:17

We have set the bar. Yeah. Is it really high or really low?

SPEAKER_03 1:21

I'm just trying to think about the timeline, like right about the the time when this game came out, Star Wars was pumping out content that wasn't great. And it was just getting it out there. It was just like suddenly they they they agreed to something that said we're gonna do five different series on Disney on Disney Plus a year, and it was weirdly timed when this game came out. I I don't want to disagree with your sentiment there, actually. This may be solely responsible for the downfall of the Star Wars universe.

SPEAKER_05 1:53

Sure, but why though? I mean it's it's Brian Eddie. I guess this was his fifth release in his career after Stranger Things would be the most recent one, and then way before that in the mid-90s, with The Shadow First, followed by Attack from Mars and then Medieval Madness.

SPEAKER_03 2:11

Yeah, right. Like the three very highly rated games. Yeah. And speaking of highly rated, we have a fantastic guest with us this evening. We have Ben. I know you mentioned his name earlier, but he's known he's known as Pinjamin on the stream. Ben, welcome. Tell us a little bit about you and and and pinball.

SPEAKER_04 2:33

Oh gosh. Uh I could talk, I could talk way too long about that. But long story short, my first pinball machine 10 years ago bought an X-Men from a coworker. He had a barbecue for our department. And the barbecue was in the backyard. You had to go through the garage where all the pinball machines were. I never made it to the backyard. I just kept playing pinball the whole time. So he asked me a couple of days later at work, hey, you want to buy a pinball machine? And yeah. Somehow, as you you know how it works, one turned into three within a year or two.

SPEAKER_03 3:09

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 3:10

And yeah, then I did take a break for a few years. We adopted a baby right before COVID. So pinball kind of took a back seat, but about three years ago I got back into it hardcore. You're seeing half of the lineup right behind me, and the rest is scattered around the room. And I've cycled through a lot of games, including the Mandalorian, which I I just sold last week, only because I gotta make room for Pokemon.

SPEAKER_05 3:36

Aha, okay. Was it a pro or a premium that you sold? I had a pro. I had a pro.

SPEAKER_03 3:43

Okay, I'm surprised that you're here defending Mandalorian, having owned a pro.

SPEAKER_04 3:48

Well, to be fair, I I did replace the horrible plastic ramp returns with the with the wireform ones. That's a good one from the premium. Sure. Uh yeah. And I didn't, I actually didn't have a ton of time on a premium. I had our local parlor here, Capital Pinball Parlor, here in in Old Town Sacramento. Shout out to Ryan and Stephanie. Love you guys. Um they have a pro there. In fact, it was it was the owner, Ryan's first pinball machine. Oh, and then he he he got bit by that bug much faster than me. Now he runs a parlor with 30 35 machines, but he still has his Mando Pro.

SPEAKER_05 4:28

Okay, nice. Now we still have our Mando Pro. We actually just removed Mando Pro from our lineup to to make room for Joel George's old Fathom.

SPEAKER_03 4:40

Yes. Now he tried to sell me on the Mando Pro as well. He was letting me know what what's up for what's up for sale. Oh yeah, it's a hundred percent for sale. Oh yeah. And that I feel like would normally be a good segue into maybe why Mando has a bad rap, but I don't want to jump that far into it. Rather than color everyone's thoughts on on Mando, either for good or bad, I thought it might be a good idea to start with talking a little bit about Mando, where it is, what the shot layout is, uh, before we get into the why why it got a bad rap and and why Paul can't stand the game.

SPEAKER_05 5:20

No, I I agree with that. What what is it that we're talking about? We gotta we gotta discuss what it is before we discuss why it's bad, right?

SPEAKER_03 5:28

Sure. Yes. So really quick, I'm gonna throw on a short video from Stern uh that just walks through the pro. And I think everyone here has experience on a pro. I've owned a pro. Paul, you still have a pro at the shop. Ben, it sounds like you had the pro that you just sold. So I've got the the game features video on the pro. Why don't we start there? Now, unfortunately, Ben, I don't think you're gonna be able to hear this, but everyone else will be able to hear it.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

One hour later.

SPEAKER_03 5:57

Let's talk about the pro.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 5:59

I actually don't have the premium video prepped. I'll do that while you're talking about the uh about the pro if you want to get us kicked off here.

SPEAKER_05 6:07

Yeah, but you go for it, Ben.

SPEAKER_04 6:10

Yeah. Oh, I mean, no, no big deal. I I I can I can tell you, as I as I said earlier, I I replaced the plastic wireforms, uh the plastic ramp returns with the wireform ones from the premium. That made a huge difference. That honestly, I I feel like there probably would be like less, you know, hate for the pro if they had just come with those in the first place. The you know, some of the other main differences that that I'm aware of is, you know, the obviously the encounters upper mini play field is a whole like you know, motorized helmet play field that with two flippers. And I in my limited experience playing the the premium, I found that uh very frustrating, probably because I didn't spend enough time with it, and it's so fast when it gets really steep, because it gets steeper with every level of the encounter of the one, one, two, and three levels. Whereas on the pro, it's really just more shots to hit, I believe, is the difference. And if you've set up your pro and and it's it's it's playing smoothly and nicely, that's that's not that big of a deal. Um, but the moving the moving helmet play field is pretty cool, just from a like you know, mechanical technological standpoint. Okay to have something like that in there, I think, anyway. Okay, let's see. You also have another key difference there is the ambush shot, which on the pro is just you call that a wraparound, I guess, or I usually refer to or shoot. Okay, but uh there's a diverter in there that will pop it up in, I believe it's just in ambush mode, maybe in at other times where it it and then drops to the wire form that comes around to the left flipper. Um, of all the features in the premium missing from the pro, that's the one I wanted the most.

SPEAKER_05 8:07

Okay, the diverter that's changing the horseshoe shot into a 180 ramp where where the ball's roughly in the same direction that it it went in.

SPEAKER_03 8:18

Yeah, it's awesome. It's a super cool feature, and I love 180s. Like I don't know about you guys, but I I dig the 180 ramp. In fact, on Lord of the Rings, that's one of the most satisfying shots is when you cleanly hit that left ramp and it comes right back at you while twisting. Like it, it it's it's awesome.

SPEAKER_04 8:35

I love it. I love that shot on Jaws, and and it drives me nuts that the hardest mode is the one started on that shot because it's easiest, easiest one to hit. Yeah. And then there's the the Grogu of the Child Magnet, which on the premium can kind of grab the ball and throw it around. And I've I've often wondered if there was a plan. In fact, I've read rumors maybe that there was a plan to make the Grogu actually interact with the ball, and they could they just couldn't make that work.

SPEAKER_03 9:07

Couldn't make it work.

SPEAKER_04 9:08

So the fallback was with the bomb or just mechanically. Um I I had heard I had read somewhere on Penn Side or somewhere that the idea was Grogu was going to put his hand down and grab the ball and bring it up and then do things with it and release the ball or whatever, but I don't know if that's true or not. So so the magnet grabbing the ball and throwing it around is kind of cool. I will say on the pro, without that magnet there, I I don't think I I had the ball go through the like the H I L lanes very often. It was almost always the C or the D down the middle. Yep. And so it was actually kind of difficult to light child.

SPEAKER_03 9:49

Yeah. But uh I want to add something to that description because what's really cool about that magnet is that kind of like Twilight Zone, when you hit the flipper buttons, you have some control over the magnet. So you actually on a premium can play with the ball up there if it's not going down a lane you like, and you can pull it back up and let it randomly try and fall down a different lane.

SPEAKER_05 10:10

Is it this is it the flippers or is it the center button? No, no, it's the flippers.

SPEAKER_04 10:15

It's the flippers, okay. Wow. That's actually pretty cool. I was not I was not aware of that.

SPEAKER_03 10:20

I wasn't aware of it until somebody mentioned it on stream, and that was another that I really like the premium version of this game. Not gonna lie. And and just contextually, chat is also letting us know both on YouTube and Twitch for the people who ended up buying a premium. They weren't big fans of the game until they owned the premium in-house, and then and then it sounds like we have three different people with premiums who end up and ended up loving it.

SPEAKER_04 10:48

Okay, so you know, in my case, oh sorry, no, no, no, no, keep going. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was gonna say, in in my case, you know what got me to finally consider buying Amanda was I think it was about a year ago, flipping out podcast or the sorry, the stream YouTube with Joel had a used Mandalorian premium on there. And I had played the pro at a Capitol Pinball Parlor for tournament nights and other things, kind of enjoyed it, didn't know what I was doing at all, and so I always lost on that game whenever somebody picked it. And it's all stupid manual game. But then I watched I watched somebody play it on a stream explaining how some of it works, and then I think it was two days later, or maybe the next day, that actual machine was listed on the flipping out, uh, you know, Facebook page or whatever, plus also a pro for like almost$1,500 less. And the pro was basically brand new, like 200 plays on it or something. So I I decided to save a little money and buy the pro. But um, yeah, I I don't really have any regrets because I didn't have any problems with the game at all. Sure. Sure.

SPEAKER_05 12:05

I mean, I I know, so I'm I'm gonna reveal the secret here. I don't actually hate any pinball at all. I'm just playing the bad guy. I'm being pedantic here this this whole time. And I must admit that a a strong point for this game is that you can get a pinball machine that is really cheap. It's it's you know, uh compared to other titles out there, you know, like think about how much Harry Potter costs, even the arcade version is 10 grand, and this is half that for still like an awesome Star Wars title, right?

SPEAKER_03 12:45

I'm showing it right here. Pin side, you can pick up from Wooddale, Illinois, a Mandalorian Pro for$4,400.

SPEAKER_04 12:53

Yeah, I just sold my pro with the topper for$49. Oh my god. And I was it and I sold it like that because I just I didn't getting the maximum dollar amount out of the sale wasn't the factor for me.

SPEAKER_03 13:08

Right.

SPEAKER_04 13:08

You needed to clear up a space quickly. Right, I just wanted to move it. I don't like games being listed forever and yeah, whatnot. I also did not buy the topper, I didn't have to pay full price for the topper. I got it um new old stock from a distributor on the east coast who sold to me for$1300.

SPEAKER_03 13:29

Oh wow. Oh man, you got that at a steal. That is one of the coolest toppers.

SPEAKER_04 13:34

It is absolutely a cool topper. It's not even just for what it how it looks like. It it makes it adds some really cool stuff to the game. We can talk about that.

SPEAKER_03 13:43

Well, no, no, no. That's actually a wonderful segue. I've got the feature for the topper actually all set to go. So I'm gonna I'm gonna hit play on this and let's check out this topper. Later that same evening. Not bad. That is a wicked topper. Now, I've never actually played with the topper short of at shows, so I've never really had the opportunity to really figure it out. And you had the topper on your pro. So what can can you walk us through a few of the cool things that the topper does or adds to the game in some way?

SPEAKER_04 14:13

Yeah, I know the topper outside of the I can tell you exactly what it does. It's great. Okay. The so the the topper really it it's it does two big things that it adds. The first one is that the mini wizard mode, a Mandalorian Madness. So if you if I don't know, is there a screenshot of the topper display mid-game?

SPEAKER_03 14:34

Um it is not mid-game.

SPEAKER_04 14:39

No, shoot, even even if embedded in there the YouTube video, you know, you can stop it on a on a on a frame. Got it. Let's do it. Uh okay. So you've got well, okay. So one thing it does is it keeps track on the right there, it keeps track of all the Beskar earned as people have played. Now, what I think is interesting is the hat that image shows 73,280. I'm guessing that's real early in topper development because at Beskar Bonanza, I'll come back to Mind Mandalorian Madness, but Beskar Bonanza happens when you pass 20,000 and it's it just saves every game. Don't have to be insider connected. It's just Beskar earned while playing. And if it rolls over 20,000, Best Gar Bonanza kicks in pretty much right away, and you get everything available in the foundry plus a couple other little benefits. So you get you, you know, you get I oh it lights all of the play field multipliers, the whole golden triangle, you get all the like you know, the whistling firebirds, you get the flamethrower, the armor, everything happens, and and I think you get an extra ball immediately, or it lights it. It's all it's great. So you just you get all the things when Beskar Bonanza happen, the lights go crazy, the display, and all that kind of stuff. It it showed a little of that happening in the video, but that only happens every 20,000 Beskar. So you if you want, you might time it for okay, I'm gonna have a really I'm gonna go for this is the way. This I'm I'm at like 19,700 Beskar. I know I'm gonna get it in this game. Yeah, all right. But the six icons on the left were actually far more interesting, and that's for Mandalorian Madness. And I, you know, the top left icon is easier when the colored. I can tell you the bottom left is ambush, the bottom right is completing a mission, the one above that is scope, the one to the left of that is getting a super jackpot in multi-ball. Okay, and then the one in the upper left is that's gotta be your encounters, right? Yes, encounters, right. That's so that's completing an encounter, and that is Hunter, I believe. Okay, okay. That one that one is Hunter. Oh, right. Ambush is the one in the lower left, and Hunter is in the upper right. Um, so anyway, in a game, once you complete all six of those in a game, Mandalorian Madness kicks in, and it's a 60-second multi-ball with a bunch of just shots lit for points and not get enough of them for a super jackpot, and it's a just great way to kind of blow up your points and and and get a bunch of score. And it's what I started to do was just every game became my goal for the game just became get to Mandalorian Madness, complete those objectives because you touch every part of the game. Yep, yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_05 17:33

Yeah. So I'm I'm like once you do that though, the the mini wizard mode that you're describing sounds similar to maybe Cherry Bomb from Guardians of the Galaxy.

SPEAKER_04 17:46

Yeah, yeah, I think so. I I have less experience with Guardians, but from what I know about Cherry Bomb, yes. There is or or cyborgs cyborg multiball in a way in Iron Maiden. Okay. Although that one's a bit more core to like that's built into the base game. Right. But same kind of thing. You're completing all those objectives, and once you do, you you can but in this case, Mandalorian Madness just immediately starts right away. Yeah, and it's it's uh 60 seconds. Um, I kind of wish it I were longer. Um, sometimes it it's just like, oh, this is really cool. Because you you might spend 20 minutes or whatever it is getting all those objectives completed, especially ambush and uh and uh scope or whatever, you know, or hunter. Yeah, that's it, that's a tough one.

unknown 18:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:27

So Beskar it definitely carries over from different games. Does does Mandalorian Madness also carry over, or does that reset every time you restart the game?

SPEAKER_04 18:37

Resets every time you start the game, and it's unique to each player. Awesome. Uh it's just individual player, individual game. Whereas the best guard is just cumulative every player, every game. What I don't know is what happens for Best Car Bonanza on a multiplayer game. Maybe someone in chat can tell us that. I was I was played solo at home, so I don't know if one if player one earns Best Car Bonanza and players two, three, and four are left out in the cold. I I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 19:02

You know, I have never liked that mechanic, I think, on on any game. Like the the it just accrues across multiple games and then somebody just gets lucky because they happen to to to time it.

SPEAKER_05 19:14

Oh, okay. Yeah, like on older games from like Bride of Pinbot is an example that I can think of of an older game where you're you have a a jackpot that's increasing in value across plays until a player collects it.

SPEAKER_03 19:27

Yeah. I don't like that. I don't like in in Wonka, the the Wonka Vader multi-ball that that that carries over across across multiple games. I I just don't like that aspect because because it doesn't feel earned, right? Like I I I wanna when I play the game, I want to feel like I've like I've earned everything I've gotten. Not that I got this multiball at this weird time, and because of that, I ended up making it to a wizard mode.

SPEAKER_05 19:55

I think that's the reason that it exists and has existed several times over the course of the years is that there's a big crossover in pinball and slot machines.

SPEAKER_03 20:07

And that makes sense. Slot machines, absolutely, you see that kind of a mechanic all the time. I I'm just whining. I totally it's it's something that you see with toppers often, like Avengers does the same thing where I think you're you're collecting I I don't remember what it is in Avengers, but the topper gives you some sort of a benefit that that crosses games. It starts Gem Mania. There you go, Gem Mania.

SPEAKER_04 20:30

Yep, or Emerald. It has a randomly generated name every time.

SPEAKER_05 20:35

Yeah, but and I think Gem Mania is the I wouldn't be the bad guy here if I didn't say DLC. It's all DLC, right? Yeah, it's DLC. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:46

Chat pointing out that one of the ads was felt very inappropriate. Oh yeah, it totally did, dude. I just saw it and I'm like, that that's kind of wild. Where the hell did okay, let's it was sponsored.

SPEAKER_04 20:59

It wasn't. But maybe there's maybe there's a lot of single guys in pinball.

SPEAKER_03 21:04

I don't know. Oh man. Yeah, and Jurassic Park Park's goat mania. So I I love some of the toppers that came out. I I am just not a fan of the carryover the modes that they end up adding. I love that Mandalorian added via DLC, it we'll call it DLC. They added a new mini wizard mode, or yeah, I guess, or a multiball in this case, but Mandalorian Mania. I love that that is that is game and and user specific, and it just adds something else to the game.

SPEAKER_04 21:36

I I will say the some of the other toppers that do things that are similar, like Jurassic Park with Goat Mania, Avengers with Gem Mania, or the Foo Fighters one that gives you toy time, multi ball, those are things you can reach, although very difficult in game. The the one for Mandalorian is most DLC worthy, at least for that term, because Mandalorian Madness. Not in the game unless you have the topper. Best car bonanza can't happen without the topper.

SPEAKER_03 22:04

Um, I never encountered that mode. I I I'm it you you brought it up, and I was like, I've never had Mandalorian Madness, but I never had the topper. But I had both a pro and a premium, but once again, never the never the topper, so I never got to experience that mode. We're gonna end up talking about some of these shots, and I know I know that the the that we have inadvertently talked about many of them, like the upper play field. Um just going left to right, Ben, do you mind walking us through quickly kind of what these shots are?

SPEAKER_04 22:38

Um sure, you want to just talk about ball ball paths or anything you can shoot for? Okay, ball paths.

SPEAKER_03 22:44

Let's just say with ball paths.

SPEAKER_04 22:46

So your left orbit, your left orbit there has the spinner.

SPEAKER_02 22:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 22:50

And you know, if you if you go all the way around, it comes back uh all the way down the right orbit and back. And let's see, up the left orbit, and nothing, I mean it's just it's just an occasional mode shot, nothing specific starts up there. Your your hunter modes will almost always require left, right, left orbit and right orbit in one order or the other. Um, I found left orbit to be one of the harder shots to hit in the game, actually.

SPEAKER_03 23:20

It's a tough one for sure. All right, next up, yeah, what's the shot here?

SPEAKER_04 23:26

That is the scoop. That's where you start your missions, the foundry, where your shop, uh, your extra balls, light there, and that is blissfully backhandable. It is just every copy I've played, and admittedly, it's only like four or five copies of the Mandalorian, but it's always been backhandable. Okay. That's great.

SPEAKER_03 23:49

And uh before moving on to the next shot, this this left ramp shot here, uh you you mentioned missions, and and this is another one, another Dwight game where where and on top of that, it's Star Wars, where you wonderfully get to see your progression towards the ultimate wizard mode right in the middle of the play field. So you mentioned missions, man. You got to complete five missions to get to the mini wizard, three Razor Crest to get to the the the mini wizard here, and three encounters to get to this mini wizard. And man, it based on that, you would assume if you do all those things, you get to this is the way, visually at least, based on what you're seeing here. So you you brought up missions, that's your mission start. Boom. Now going back to the layout, what's what's what's up with this left ramp shot?

SPEAKER_04 24:34

Well, the left ramp, the left ramp will either drop you down to the mini play field, uh, or it will go all the way around and return to the the right flipper. Sorry, left flipper crosses all the way across. You get all the way to the left flipper, and so that's unless you can kind of shats up the left in lane, that's how you would start your scope modes because uh the left in lane is required for that. Uh the left ramp is very steep, but still backhandable.

SPEAKER_03 25:07

For the first 40 minutes of gameplay, I'll point out if you don't have uh if you don't have pin monk fans, if you don't have pin monk fans, it it will you will lose the ability. And I have many streams where 40 minutes in is roughly 40 to 50 minutes in, you will lose the ability to backhand that shot.

SPEAKER_04 25:26

I finally beat This Is the Way and earned my signet the day before I sold the game. I I was at about like 42 minutes, and I was having trouble in the in the at the end there getting it up the left ramp. Because I didn't have fans in it. But yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:43

Okay. This shot here, the much beligned center shot. What's going on with this shot, Ben?

SPEAKER_04 25:49

So you've got the you've got the the the truck balls or whatever, the the gangly. The mud flap, yeah. The mud there you go, the mud flap, yeah, which Brian Eddy brought back, I think, with perhaps even uh more success in Venom premium and LE. Uh he brought back three of them. Yeah. But in this case, so your ball can either hit that and and you know, it might continue all the way up through the center, the center ramp in the back, or you can go to the right of it and still go it. So you can both hit it and miss it. And I think a lot of people found that frustrating. Um, I I kind of liked it, not because it you, you know, it's just a little bit you gotta be a little bit more accurate because it's real easy to go the center ramp, but it you have to be a little more accurate to hit the razor crest target. Now, maybe my pro worked better than some others. I found the razor crest hanging target to be pretty sensitive. So I didn't have any trouble with it on mine.

SPEAKER_03 26:53

I also never had trouble on either my pro or the premium. Even if I didn't hit it well, it's still triggered. It was it was it was set up to be very sensitive.

SPEAKER_05 27:02

Yeah, I don't I don't typically hear too much about trouble with with doppel dangler targets.

SPEAKER_04 27:08

So the next shot though is one that does give some people trouble. Yeah. And you know, on the pro, that's just a U-turn or a half pipe or wraparound. Yep, but kind of like the the Bond Woman loop shot or the side loop shot on Rush, it is possible to kind of not fully press down the switch. Oh, yeah, it was moving too fast, it hopped over the moving too fast and hops over the switch. And and I I I did not know about that. And uh, but for a few months in when I was really starting to get to know the game better and going, no, wait a minute, I should have completed ambush that time or something like that, and read up on it, realized ah, that's that's what's happening. There have been many different kinds of workarounds, some are simple, just you know, putting some just lowering the height of the ceiling with just some flat plastic, but you can't even see it, so you can put anything back there you want. Other people have taken the rollover switch out and put over like an opto or a magnet sensor switch and all kinds of stuff. But yeah, either way, it is it is one troublesome spot where the ball can hop the switch. I have now the premium has that premium has the diverter, and I don't know if the diverter was problematic or not to come down onto the uh onto the wireforms, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:28

No issue I ever experienced with the with the diverter there. Um brings us to the right ramp. Yeah, okay. So the this this little horseshoe is backhandable, right? Yes.

SPEAKER_04 28:42

Now is the so is the it's very tight, but at least with with the flippers aligned uh with the upper axis of the bat pointing at the at the dimple, it is just backhandable. It's very difficult though.

SPEAKER_03 28:58

It is tough.

SPEAKER_04 28:59

At least I found it tough to backhand, but it was doable. More of an issue though with that that ramp is how short the the the what am I what am I trying to say, the rise up the you know, the the the grade up to the curve is very is very short and steep, and you can actually like you can almost like hit the this the plastic on top.

SPEAKER_05 29:24

No, it rejects a lot.

SPEAKER_04 29:25

Yeah, and we'll reject. The nice thing is, and this was something that they didn't really make clear until you kind of dig in. If you loosen the screws, you can actually shift the the the entrance. You can shift it forward or back a little bit to make the the the curve of the metal flap a little bit more uh a little bit more gradual or or or steep. And so you can actually like you can slide it back and make and make it a little better. And once I did that, I got fewer rejects out of that ramp. But that shot is hard, it's close and narrow. So I do understand why a lot of people find that one, that one a little challenging.

SPEAKER_03 30:10

All right, last ballpath related shot on the game.

SPEAKER_04 30:15

And that's the right orbit. Okay, which which, if you hit it gently enough, at least on the pro, it will it can drop into the mini play field from above. And like if you do that on a launch, you can you can get this this the sneak in skill shot. If you can keep the ball up there on plunge, you can build up a nice lead uh in points.

SPEAKER_02 30:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 30:37

If you start, if you start out up there. Um, or it can go all the way over, uh it can actually go all the way around to the left orbit, or if you really time it right, you can drop it down into the uh child, uh the child lanes. And the skill shot, of course, this was always timing it to hit the the lit ramp. Yes. Or the lit, the lit lane.

SPEAKER_03 30:58

Yeah, yeah. The the trying to time it on the sea or the trying to think, oh man, it's been so long.

SPEAKER_05 31:05

Oh, I think it can it can be any of them. I mean, so it's when so the lights scrolling back and forth, right? From it's going uh just like there's I think at any given time there's actually two lights that are lit side by side. And so it's it's when the lights went from right to left and now they're coming back, and the H and the I are lit. That's when you want a full plunge.

SPEAKER_03 31:30

Oh wow. I love that you have that timing figured out. Yeah, it reminds me of Galaxy Quest when you need the timing to make it through the Chompers, and and they and they they call the kid who who has that all memorized and provides them the seconds they need to move through the chompers. Yeah, I know that because I hate this game. Okay, cool. Got it.

SPEAKER_04 31:51

Now what? Do you want to take a left and then just straight on through the chompers?

SPEAKER_03 32:05

How are we supposed to get through this? Do you have the sequence yet?

SPEAKER_00 32:09

Okay. The sequence is two, two, four, two, three, two, three, four, two, three, there's a bunch of sloppy, crunchy things in the middle of a bunch of things because it's on the television card.

SPEAKER_04 32:31

That's funny because you I didn't actually know that I never really spent enough time working on the timing for that skill shot because I was much more interested in the sneak in to the mini play field. Because I mean, if you kept it in there long enough, you'd have dozens of tens, tens of millions of points.

SPEAKER_05 32:47

Uh well, there is another uh skill shot that you can do. If you hold in the left flipper, then that will light a short little sequence of shots. So first it's gonna be your right ramp. After you hold in the left flipper and then get the lit child light as it's passing around, you'll immediately, or fairly immediately, you have a little bit of grace time. But first shot is gonna be the right ramp. And then I think after that, it wants you to hit the horseshoe, and then after that, there's gonna be three different shots that are lit: either the center ramp, the left ramp, or the scoop. And if you do all of that, then well, your scoop is your your missions, right? Your your center ramp is your razor crest multi-balls, and your left ramp is your encounters, and it'll just immediately give you start. It'll yeah, start. Let's go. I don't know. I don't qualify all three.

SPEAKER_03 33:47

Whichever one of those three shots you end up hitting.

SPEAKER_05 33:50

Oh, I see. I see it skips all the progress that you need, like if you needed to make your way through a hurry up thing in order to get to your next multi-ball. We're skipping the hurry up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:03

Now, Paul, do you remember the easiest way off the plunge to hit this right ramp? Yeah, it's the bangerang. It's the bangerang for sure. It's the bangarang. Now, Ben, are you familiar with the bangarang shot that works on so many sterns? I am not.

SPEAKER_04 34:21

Okay. At least not by the name.

SPEAKER_03 34:23

If you hold the left flipper on most stern games, it will, when you plunge, if you full plunge, it goes all the way around. Now, obviously, games like Avengers, that doesn't work because it it doesn't shoot it.

SPEAKER_05 34:33

I don't think you actually need to hold in the left flipper to in order to send the ball all the way around. That's just how you get the super skill shot.

SPEAKER_04 34:39

Well, if you don't depend on the games, like Deadpool, you have to hold it in. Yeah, you have to hold it in tools.

SPEAKER_05 34:45

On a lot of games, you do have to hold it in. You don't have to hold it in to send it all the way around on this game.

SPEAKER_03 34:52

On this game.

SPEAKER_05 34:53

That's true. Yes. Okay. There's nothing to stop the ball.

SPEAKER_03 34:55

Got it. So no holding the left flipper. But if you let, if you full plunge and you let it hit the the left flipper and bounce over to the right flipper, and at the moment it hits the right flipper, you flip up. So this is the the quick lock skill shot from TNA. It nine times out of ten will perfectly hit this right ramp and go straight up. Which achieves part one of your skill shot of your two-part skill shot. So you hit this left ramp and you go directly into an encounter.

SPEAKER_05 35:29

Yeah. Yeah. So there's there's some cool stuff that's not immediately like pinballs already not an immediately apparent thing for for most people. You got to read into what the game's trying to tell you a little bit, but this skill set is not like that that combination of of uh skillful maneuvers is not apparent whatsoever. The game is not telling you to do that.

SPEAKER_03 35:55

It's definitely not. But if you do Scott Denise really cool on TNA, got us all to try the quick shot, and then we started trying the quick shot lock from TNA on all the Stern games, and it hits on almost everyone. And then Paul OneStream named it the bangering, and we are pushing the hell out of that. Like it is the bangering.

SPEAKER_05 36:16

I'm down with that.

SPEAKER_04 36:17

The bangering.

SPEAKER_05 36:18

Let's go. Well, we I think it'll be secure once the I I have yet to, I've never played a hook in my life. Sure. And so if it works on hook, it's definitely the bangering.

SPEAKER_03 36:30

It's definitely the bangering at that point.

SPEAKER_05 36:32

Absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:33

Okay. We've been through the game. We've been through some of the differences between the premium and the pro. I did find the video for the premium. I'm going to play that, and then and then I think we're ready to start shitting on this game. And and Ben, you you're you're you're welcome to defend it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:50

How does that sound? No, it's uh yeah. Please somebody's got to defend the game, but I I felt like somebody here had to trash on it. Yeah. And that's me. Okay. All right. I'm going to go run to the bathroom.

SPEAKER_03 37:02

You do that. We're going to look, we're going to watch the short video on the premium, which is going to show us some of the differences between the pro and the premium.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

One hour later.

SPEAKER_03 37:10

Now we got to see the the some of the differences in action between the pro and the premium.

SPEAKER_04 37:16

So I want yeah. Well, I wanted to talk. We were we were still talking about shots, and I did want to talk about something that that that I found interesting getting to know my game compared to what a lot of people out there have said about shooting on this game, in that they found, I mean, hitting the left ramp to get up to the encounters play field, and then just playing encounters, being being very grindy and wood choppy. And I'm sure during the rants and and and uh knocking of this game, that will that will come up. But I found I was able to set up my pro with just the right pitch and and the the flippers were were stock, newer bushings. I put the newer stern bushings in.

SPEAKER_02 37:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 37:59

But when the ball would come out of the the encounter mini play field and then roll down that right orbit, nine nine times out of ten, if I just flipped the ball right when it hit the flipper, it would go right back up the left ramp, beautifully, right back up to that play field. And I and I run into a lot of like Mando uh like owners or people who have played it on location or whatever said, that doesn't, I don't what are you talking about? What the hell? And I'm like, I don't know what to tell you. Like, I that was one of the like I have to give a little bit of prompts to Brian Eddy for that because maybe it's really tough to set it up that way, but it is absolutely possible. And I found that shot to be very loopable as needed, the way I had my game set up. Just being able to repeat it on the fly. That's that's what just being able to hit it right back up from the right flipper up the left ramp to get back to the to the encounters in the playfield.

SPEAKER_05 38:54

Okay. So uh as we're talking about tweaks and everything with the and that was on your pro, uh right? Yes, okay, yeah. So I would I also tweaked the the uh upper playfield area or the helmet area. We won't call it an upper play field because it's not it, it's a stand-in for an upper play field, right? But it's at the same plane as the rest of the playfield. It's one of these, it's the helmet. Yeah, exactly. So when I was working on tuning up the the Mandalorian Pro that we still have at Pinball Jones, just not on the floor anymore. I was uh tuning up the feed coming out of that diverter at the top of the left ramp. I was I was tweaking how the ball feeds to the single flipper in the helmet area because I wanted the ball, I wanted the ball to feed onto a lifted flipper. I wanted the player to be able to immediately trap the ball. Sure. A lifted flipper. You were able to do that? Yes. What did you change to achieve that? I can't remember. It was so long ago, dude. And I made after I did it, I never wanted to look at it again. It like it was a lot of RD, man. Yeah. I think it was Aren't there like plastics in front of no? It was the it was the lip at the very bottom. So there's a little stair set, uh a set of stairs kind of that it falls down after it's the ball's diverted, right? Yep, and it falls and it hits a there's a there's a like a it's like a one-inch one and a half inch rubber ring. The final thing that the ball hits before it bounces over to the single right flipper in the in the helmet area on a pro is a rubber. Yeah. So the thing that I remember tweaking was the angle of that very bottom stair, I guess, or step as it's trickling the balls trickling down, kind of. You know what I'm talking about? Maybe we need a like a a a side view.

SPEAKER_04 41:09

I absolutely I I do. I mean, I had a pro, and so I I I know this those kind of stairs that it's falling down. Yeah, I never tweaked the angles of any of the plastics, but I it wasn't plastic, it was metal. Well, it is metal, but there's a the the the plastic is the sidewall that it hits it's a clear plastic, but it's the the metal steps that it kind of falls down. On the pro when I got mine, the the post that holds that rubber ring at the bottom of the steps was like just totally had totally come out. It was super loose, and I'm like, okay, wasn't sure. Like maybe it happened during shipping, I have no idea, but yeah, I was able to tighten that and put a slightly smaller uh silicon ring in there just to make it tighter, and that at least always guaranteed that it bounced over to the lowered flipper, right? So I never had it, I never had it just just drain right at it.

SPEAKER_05 42:04

Yeah, that's because that's what a lot of people have a big bummer too. You hit the shot, the the game diverted the ball into the upper play field, and then you didn't get a chance to flip because it just trickled out of there, right?

SPEAKER_04 42:16

It's but that was I think that's a solvable problem, but you do have to maybe just you know make sure it's all tightened up because the the post is slidable left right, so you can be you can make it just stupidly mean, right? But why it's already hard enough.

SPEAKER_05 42:33

Yeah, I I think I also adjusted that upper slipper to be set lower. I can't remember. Oh, yeah, maybe it was either lower or higher. I can't remember exactly what I did. Uh I I might have made it higher to make it easier to trap the ball while it was up there.

SPEAKER_04 42:52

Um at a show, at a show I played a pro where somebody had put one of the the precision flippers that's longer. It's like longer than a standard flipper right in there. And I'm like, okay, well, this is too easy.

SPEAKER_05 43:05

Like, yeah, and now the whole now it's the helmet that never comes off, right? Yeah, right. Real quick, one last quick thing uh on the on the history of the game that George and I had discussed before, I think before Ben had even hopped on the the call here. This was the last game to come out before Stern Insider Connected, and therefore also it was released at a lower MSRP along with that, because there was a price hike with the next game that came out, which was Godzilla, which was the first game to already have Stern Insider Connected installed on it. So the first games of this that were released did not have Stern Insider, and they were all at a lower price point.

SPEAKER_03 43:50

Now, granted, they didn't not use the higher price point with Stern Insider Connected after they released Insider Connected, meaning depending on when you bought. Game, if you bought the first batch, you would have gotten it cheaper, but it didn't have Insider Connected. And then you would have had to have manually added it yourself with one of those packages. Yep. Which I must have done. And on my on my pro, or later, if you would have purchased it after Godzilla, you're saying, which was the first game with Insider Connected to be released. If you had purchased it, it would have either been retrofitted with a kit or been manufactured fresh with those kits installed at the higher MSRP.

SPEAKER_04 44:28

I'm pretty sure Stern started manufacturing even the runs of previous games pretty much right away.

SPEAKER_05 44:35

Yeah, yeah. I think they did it fairly quickly, but there was there was a small amount of time where you could get, you know, if you if you were like, oh, I love Mandalorian, I'm gonna get one right away, it's not coming with Insider Connected. And yeah, it's there there might have been a small window after Godzilla came out where it's like, no, I've been looking to get a Mando for a few months now, and I'm I look at Godzilla, he's green, he's not black. Uh, I'm gonna get a Mando.

SPEAKER_03 45:06

Right. Oh man, do you remember people freaking out over the fact that that Godzilla was too colorful?

SPEAKER_05 45:12

Oh, people take things too seriously. Yeah, all right, so let's start doing what everybody's been sitting and waiting for the whole time. This game sucks, dude. The multiplier on it sucks. There's this ambush thing that sucks on it, and it turns the whole game like white or blue or whatever. And I when that's going on, I can't do the rest of the game. And it's when I'm in that mode, it's all risk and reward, and I don't usually finish it, so I get nothing. Okay, and it sucks.

SPEAKER_03 45:45

Multipliers and ambush. What else?

SPEAKER_05 45:50

I mean, I can I need to go more into multipliers, but we can okay.

SPEAKER_03 45:53

No, no, no. I'm gonna add a couple more issues with this game. Uh, if you remember early versions of the code, there was no reason to hit any shot that wasn't the center ramp or the center loop.

SPEAKER_05 46:04

Yeah, it's the center Lorian, right?

SPEAKER_03 46:06

Yeah, yeah. This game was entirely about just get into multiball, hit the middle shot, don't do anything else in this game because it's a Dwight game, and universally, most Dwight games, all of the scoring is in multiball. So screw everything else, just go after multi-ball in this game.

SPEAKER_04 46:23

So well, I it certainly didn't end that way.

SPEAKER_05 46:26

Sure. No, yeah, we we should talk about where it is now because it still gets a bad rap.

SPEAKER_04 46:31

Well, I did want to touch a little bit on that though, because I I did not again, I I only seriously got back into pinball three years ago in uh in 2023 when Foo Fighters was the new hotness. Um, and so I I've spent three years kind of working through the backlog of spike two games, including Mandalorian, which I you know already was already on 1.44 code. Um, and I dug a little bit when I was gonna do this vodka to the guys. I went and looked at the release notes because Stern keeps release notes going back to when they launched the games typically. And yeah, apparently this game launched at 0.96 code. Sure. 2008 was which was surprising to me because nowadays games launch at like 0.38 or whatever, you know.

SPEAKER_05 47:21

Um and uh TMT launched at 1.0. I think John Wick also launched at 1.0 code. Well John Wick is still not at 1.0. It was initially, I don't think it was. No, it doesn't.

SPEAKER_03 47:37

We checked this once. You you also we've been through this and we've looked at another podcast. Yeah, and you said that last time too. And we checked it. I know we checked it, it has never been at 1.0.

SPEAKER_04 47:47

Okay, yeah, Wick was in the low to mid 80s, and it looks like J. Cool Star okay from there. But but what I thought was interesting about about Mando launching at 0.96 is that there weren't a lot of more updates until 1.0. I I'd have to go back and check how long it took. And there were some updates after that, but most of according to the release notes, what came after the early 1.0 whatever releases was just the insider connected and other system type type updates, not a whole lot of gameplay changes. So people who talk about early code problems, there weren't a lot of like patches, there were lots of versions that were out there. There must have been very significant changes from those first, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:34

Remember updates. Ambush was released kind of later on, or at least it was there were significant changes to it. I'm pulling that from personal memory, so which is everybody's memory is flawed, right? So it might not be accurate 100% accurate. But one of the most significant changes that I that I a hundred percent am sure is true is the addition of hurry-ups in between those those multi-balls. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 49:05

And that was huge. Now, I don't think that stopped anyone from going after multi-balls too. It didn't. No, just slowed them down, more difficult. I I have a I have a I have a stream or I have a video I created where we did exactly that. Like then you hit the middle ramp, and then you hit the middle ramp, and then you hit the middle ramp, and guess what? The next shot you have to do is hit the middle ramp. And Paul, do you remember what you're supposed to hit next? Shoot the pyramid. The pyramid.

SPEAKER_05 49:34

I mean that well, that's from Stargate pinball. Oh, got it. The game says nothing but shoot the pyramid. Yeah. And it's also right in the middle. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:42

So it's still kind of is that if you want big points, I mean, net, then I would bring in the the the multipliers on it. But it to recap, kind of we went off on a tangent there. There's the multipliers in this game, which can be kind of difficult.

SPEAKER_05 49:58

How many multipliers, George? We've taught we've mentioned multipliers, but we haven't mentioned what the multipliers multiply it to.

SPEAKER_03 50:05

So these three multipliers get you plus five x, which gets you to a total of six x, but if you also activate your fire thing, you get an additional one x. So I think you can max out at seven x on this.

SPEAKER_05 50:20

Is it seven x or is it twelvex?

SPEAKER_04 50:23

It's it's seven x, like if you complete the game, you get a permanent plus one X for the rest of the game. So you can't really get to plus seven until you beat it, but you can get to six. Or sorry, not plus, but just six X by lighting all three.

SPEAKER_03 50:43

That's a good question, though. Imagine you get your six X, right? But because you've done Boba, you've done Hunter, and you've done what is it, Scope is the the third scope. You do all three of those, you hit your seven X, and then you activate your flame thing. Does that multiply the multiplier, or does that just add a plus one to them to the play field multiplier? So does that does that multiply it by two? So putting you at the 12x play field, or does that bump you up to 7x?

SPEAKER_05 51:11

I don't know. Okay, okay. So my my maybe my main argument for this being a bad game is that even the people that have played it a bunch, George, you've owned a pro and a premium, Ben, you've owned a a pro for for quite some time. I've I've put in my punches on this game, and none of us know whether it increases it to a 12x play field or 7x play field.

SPEAKER_04 51:38

I think it just adds another plus one. I I think I think I can't like I have to do the math. I think I've never noticed it blowing up that big. Yeah, you're also forgetting one other multiplier option, which is the the ramp shot multipliers. Oh, yes. The stand up right ramp.

SPEAKER_02 51:58

Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_04 51:58

And that just you know, that just that that will double the the next ramp shot, and then they you have to hit them again.

SPEAKER_05 52:08

And it's just the right ramp, not the left ramp, right?

SPEAKER_04 52:11

I thought it was any ramp ramps, the three, I think it's any of the three ramps, but okay. Again, now now you've got me wondering.

SPEAKER_05 52:20

Yeah, my point is that it's freaking confusing here. With uh there's a there's a lot of stuff going on, almost too much, but not nearly as much to the extent that Avengers did, which was I was about to say compared to Avengers, this is easy. Simple. This is a bare bones can compared to Avengers, but it's still it's not apparent. It doesn't, it's not holding your it's not guiding you along in in the way that a good video game does.

SPEAKER_03 52:51

Bond does a fantastic job of play field multipliers.

SPEAKER_05 52:55

So if you're gonna the gold standard of I would say playfield multipliers, not just with visually you understand what's going on, but also the difficulty and the the goal is always there, but it's not something that is that you would expect to do when when you get it, it's a huge moment and and uh somewhat unexpected, right? On this game, it's a chore. It's I'm gonna get there. Yeah, yes, I'm gonna get there. This is the problem with with huge multipliers, is that when you put them in the game, I don't care what work or what coolness you put. I'm speaking to Dwight right now. Uh, when you put massive multipliers in the game like this, you are erasing all of my desire to experience the rest of your game.

SPEAKER_03 53:51

Uh because uh you you competitively only go for the multipliers at that point.

SPEAKER_05 53:56

Now you've you've given me one goal now. I don't care what the other things that are in the game and and how cool they are and what your light shows are like. I don't care. I want the six X play field.

SPEAKER_03 54:07

Now, Ben, let me ask you a question. How often did you find yourself going for the 6X of the 7x or maybe a multiplied ramp with the 7x and pulling it into a multi-ball?

SPEAKER_04 54:20

Only really when I was competing on location. Sure, playing at home, I would like okay, I want to I want to get at least a billion points or something. So let's try and always have at least one of the triangles. Okay. Because you know, love them or hate them, the play field multiplier lasts a long time once it's started on this game because it's easy to to keep it going, relatively easy by that's continuing to punch Boba Fett in the face.

SPEAKER_05 54:52

But yeah, that's my bigger problem with it, is that it never ends. Uh, it's possible to make the the multiplier last as long as the rest of your ball. Because you have a massive amount of time just to hit those one of those two stand-up targets on the right side. Yep, these guys. You it's it and it I think you can you can build your timer. I want to say your timer starts at a minute, so 60 seconds, and as soon as you hit one of them, it'll increase it by a decent amount. I want to say it's like 15, 20 seconds increase. It's 20 seconds. I think you have to hit both, though.

SPEAKER_04 55:35

I I'm pretty sure it's just one. Maybe it's just one, but I know it's I know I'm pretty sure it's 20 seconds because it's gonna get over.

SPEAKER_05 55:41

You're absolutely right. To start it, you you need to hit both. Once it's started, you only need to hit one to get to increase your time to keep your time going, and it'll cap out at 90 seconds. So now I have 90 seconds to hit one of them again.

SPEAKER_03 55:59

Got it. You're saying the the timer stacks.

SPEAKER_05 56:01

It's almost like if if you are aware of it, it is almost impossible to let it time out.

SPEAKER_03 56:08

So, but the the reason I asked that was if you're playing this game competitively, like many other pinball games, you're not really playing it for for anything other than then man, what's the what's the strat you're gonna go with? Right, like it oh the strat, are you honestly asking? You want to know no no no I don't want to know the strat.

SPEAKER_04 56:30

It's it's pretty simple, but it is simple, it's the golden triangle. You just get those multipliers and and and center shot for multiple for multi-ball and and raise request hurry up.

SPEAKER_05 56:42

Yep, and and I guess how how do we start? So, how do we get all three triangles, right? We we had mentioned it briefly before both of the boba fett targets are just one of them, right? And then the other two are a little bit more complicated, though, as far as how to light them and then how to collect them. Yes, right. So to light our let's start with the hunter, because that's on the complete opposite side of Boba Fett, where we have three dropped, sorry, three stand-up targets instead of two. And the game is kind of gracious on your first set of hunter targets, so you don't have to hit each individual target. If you hit, if you just bash it over there, it'll spot you a target, you know, a light for a target that you didn't necessarily hit directly. Uh so now you have hunter lit. What does that do? Well, it lights your inlanes, it's a controllable switch in lane thing. So one of your inlanes is gonna be lit. If you want the other in lane to be lit, just flip. That's all you gotta do. So if you roll over the the in lane when it's lit, it's gonna start your hunter mode, where you Ben had mentioned it very well before, where you need to hit both orbits. Either it's gonna start on your if you if you rolled over, it'll be an opposing side, right? So if you if you rolled over your lit in lane when it was on the right side, then your left orbit will be lit first. Follow and after you hit that, then it's the right orbit. Sure. And it's just mirror image for the other side. So if you if you drop down your left lit in lane for hunter, it'll your first shot will be your right orbit, and then after you hit that, it'll be left orbit. And you can in this is this mode is is gaining you best scar, and you can increase the value of your best car by hitting the lit ramps during this this mode as well.

SPEAKER_03 58:40

Okay. And if you complete both the left and the right, you end up getting your plus one X over here. Yes. For Hunter.

SPEAKER_05 58:46

Now, how do you light scope? Scope is to execute it, you well, I guess we can work backwards here. That's this is how I usually am talking about it. When you after you've lit scope, which is only lit on your inlane, uh on the left side, right? Strict strictly the left side, when when you roll over the left side when scope is lit, what's your goal? You well, you need to hit one of three different things. You need to either hit the right ramp, the horseshoe that that goes underneath the the right ramp, or the target that's in between those two shots.

SPEAKER_04 59:25

Yeah, there are the three blue triangular inserts pointing at the three. Yep.

SPEAKER_05 59:29

Yep, that one, that one, or that one. Yeah. So how do you light scope? Well, it's those same three shots.

SPEAKER_04 59:36

Okay. Yeah, I think you just have to hit all three of them.

SPEAKER_05 59:39

Yeah, you just have to hit each one of them once.

SPEAKER_04 59:42

I know. I think in some modes, you can't like you can't light them by hitting them. I I think like in ambush, although in ambush you have to hit most of those anyway. But I think, yeah, or if you're in a multi-ball, it might not. I I'm not sure on that. There were times when I was like, no, wait a minute, I've been hitting all those shots. Why is my scope not lit? Right. But then, yeah, and but the challenge with scope is that once you once you hit that in lane switch to start scope, you have like five seconds. So if you miss, you might with some lucky bounces get one more shot, but otherwise you have to light them again. And it once you you successfully complete scope on one of those three blue blue-lit shots, the next time you get scope, that shot will not be available. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:40

So it gets harder and harder.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:42

Sure, but we're going we're going for the triangle trifecta here, right? Uh in a competitive play. If I'm looking to grand champ the game and and get the highest score on a game without a topper, because it sounds a little bit like this, like getting the topper might make the the scores, the scoring a little bit easier, you know, if you got the best car or which one was which? I I can't remember.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:06

Best car bonanza is the is the one that you get for passing 20,000, and it looks like yeah. Johnny Ellis says that it looks like the only one, whoever, whichever player is active when it passes 20,000 gets it because it's okay, yeah. So it could be stolen. Gotcha. Which that that is a bummer.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:27

Uh not in competitive play, though, I I'd imagine.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:29

Not in the competitive play, yeah. No, that doesn't, I think that's disabled in comp play because you know we have it at Capitol Pinball Parlor here, and it's locked permanently in comp mode. And and I've seen it pass 20,000.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:43

Let's say oh yeah, I usually have this game in in competitive mode as well, just because of the mystery award in the foundry. Um is is that why I have it in competitive play?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:58

It's it's no randomness, and so no child, no child rewards.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:04

Maybe that's it. I can't remember exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:07

I if I remember, so Esher told me about a bug in the software.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:12

Yeah, I've been using this bug ever since.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:14

Yeah, yeah. And I don't think it works in competitive play, though. It does not, because there's no mystery. Right, right. So in the mystery, if you activate them, if you choose from Beskar the mystery option, it's the and you immediately lock it in within like a quarter of a second. If you do it fast enough, you will get the 7x.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:36

No, it's it's not a 7x, it's a huge perk though. Well, I thought it was the 7x. It was the massive perk.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:45

No, it was the 7x. If you do it fast enough, it's guaranteed 7x. I'm pretty sure we have streams.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:53

I've I've tell me all this cool stuff about Mando. I can't even go try it.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:59

Well, well, dank Ferret, like all of the awards that we're talking about, the the 7X, Dank Farric, there's an at least one, if not two more in there, are not awards that you can get from the foundry naturally. Normally, when you just select the mystery uh award from the foundry and let it do its thing, it'll automatically select something that you could have selected yourself just for a lesser amount of best car spent. Right? So the but the the ultimate award is is still random, though. So it's not 7x 100% of the time. Sometimes it because it's this is only accessible when it's not on competitive play. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:44

And my understanding about how that's worked just from playing it, and I don't know bug-wise or not, but yeah, when you select the question mark for the random award, it's still the icon moves around, and then if you hit the button again while it's on the question mark again, that's when you get one of the random mystery awards. And it can it can be 7x, it can be dank ferric, there might be some others, like yeah, I think there are some others in there too.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:12

Okay, okay. So yeah, it's it's one of the extra, you know, the ultra awards. But if it what what Esher had discovered was that if you double tap the the center button, and it's gotta be really, really, really fast. Yes. It has to be extremely fast because the the way the software is set up, the the the code is set up is that it's it's about to randomize whatever icon is selected, and and you selected you if it lands on the the question mark, then that's where you get the ultra award. Well, we double tapped it so fast that it didn't have a chance to move off of the question mark.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:54

Yeah, that's that's what it was. And I remember Escher calling me an old man because my reflexes weren't fast enough. Because you you have to hit it so quick, really, really quick. It's a double tap, it's very, very quick on the double tap. Yeah. Okay. So all of that, what I was getting at there was that is quite a lot of work to try and get your 6x. And then if you still have the flamethrower, then let's assume it's your 7x.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:21

Yeah, it I think everybody would have noticed if it was a 12x. You wouldn't notice if it was if it was a 12x.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:27

Okay, so you you you get your 7x, and but how is that different, Paul? If you're playing on any game, there is going to be some sort of a strat that you do instead of playing the game naturally. Like Deadpool. You're you're not going through, I'm imagining, and and playing through your your primary battles and then your secondary battles. You you have a strat where you're just going to try and put up the most amount of points possible on a Deadpool. Or you could say the same thing for man, why can I not think of anything but? Pokemon right now. Like any other Stern game, you have a strat where you're probably not going to go through the modes with a few exceptions. Like Godzilla, actually, most of the Keith Elwyn games kind of force you to play through the modes in order to progress at some point or put up points. So if you take the Elwyn games out of the mix, you're not describing, I feel like, anything different than how you would play any other game in in competitive format, which would be to bypass all the cool light shows and and all the cool mini wizard modes. And you're probably just going to go straight for multi-ball.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:33

Maybe. I don't know. Like uh you got me stuck on Deadpool. That was part of finals last night. So I I mean I have a very specific strategy for Deadpool that I can rattle off right now. I'm gonna go little Deadpool with with Juggernaut. I'm gonna stack those two after that.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:47

Multi ball with juggernaut.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:49

Yeah, multiball with juggernaut. After that, I actually stack disco multiball with the little Deadpool frenzy.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:55

Got it. So you're going for multi-ball and you're gonna put it pull in a map.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:58

I'm stacking a multi-ball with with a mini mode. It doesn't matter if it's a battle or a quest.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:02

And what are you doing with Jurassic Park?

SPEAKER_05 1:07:04

What's your what's your strat on Jurassic Park? Jurassic Park. I'm doing a typically I kind of it's a little bit different, I guess. Uh I I want to get through my my first paddock so I can like control room. Okay. And then I want to do system boot. If I'm in if I don't have a multi-ball prepped, okay, right? But if I do have a multi-ball prepped, I want to go for a different what is that?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:29

You want raptor, control room, and a mode all at the same time. That should be your strat on Jurassic Park. And it's still multi-ball. You're you're you're and that is it's all stacking stuff. It's all it but it's always a multi-ball. And the point I wanted to make here was even in competition, this game gets shit on because you're talking about focusing on the the the multiplier, but it's bringing a multiplier into a multi-ball and preferably with a mode if you can do them at the same time.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:55

Well, I mean, there's two different strats for me. None, none of which involve I don't care about the wizard modes on this game. They're this game doesn't really tell a story very coherently, and I don't care what the we better well, okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:10

We need to come back to that.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:11

We do need to come back. Absolutely. All right, let's go get the I knew I was gonna piss you guys off.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:17

No the mini wizard modes in this game, Ben, what are your thoughts on the mini wizard modes?

SPEAKER_04 1:08:21

The the the mini wizard modes in this game are some of the the best, at least when you talk about integration with like the the video and sound assets from the IP and the the you know the light shows and the the varying the the progress through the different phases, sound and all of that. Everything, these are some of the best mini wizard modes in a modern stern.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:44

I I would say the exact same thing. These mini wizard modes are amazing, they're phased, they're so fun. I love getting to them. What do you say about that ball?

SPEAKER_05 1:08:54

I don't think I've ever bothered to try it because it's why why do that when I can when I can break a billion in my first multi-ball with the mode and and then a six X or a 7X?

SPEAKER_04 1:09:10

Because you only play this game in competition when you have to, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:09:15

Uh no, sometimes I'll play it like that. So I have I have two different strats, but they're all very point-driven, right? So I I won't, if I'm playing in a competition, I don't necessarily go for the 6x. I'll just I'll just stick with a a 2x play field, maybe a 3x if I'm lucky. That's a lot of that's a lot of risk. That's a lot of work to do on on this game, which can sometimes be set up really hard. You know, it's it's not a an easy game. It's I wouldn't say call it brutal either, but it's it's somewhere in the middle.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:51

I guess what I'm getting at is that you're you're playing this is competition play you're talking about.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:55

Yeah, I'm so yeah, there's there's points, point taker, moment maker. It's down there, right? Yeah, I'm I'm point taker Georgia's moment maker.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:06

Progression.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:08

Progression. This game is this game is a fun one for progression. There is a big asterisk there, and we'll come back to that. But the the mini wizard modes are are great examples of integrating the the the IP assets. They they're in this game, they're excellent. They just they are. Um and I I gotta give Dwight props to for that because I I think it's it's done really well. Um the asterisk though is that this is the way it is a colossal letdown compared to the mini wizard modes. I would agree. But yeah, I I gotta wonder if maybe they were hoping for more climactic scenes and things to use for this is the way coming at the end of season two, which they were watching while developing this game and didn't know what to do with that mode at the end, because you play through the three mini wizard modes, and they are incredibly cinematic. They're drawn out in multiple phases, and and then you you complete all those, that lights this is the way, and that's kind of like playing a clip episode at the like at the end of a season of Star Trek or something like that, or or during a writer's strike or whatever, where they have they can't use there's no new footage, they don't know what to do, so they put a clips episode in. That's kind of what this is the way is like through all the phases. Um, that was a little bit of a letdown. Still cool to get to and to complete and get through the and get the achievements and all that stuff, but nowhere near as epic as the mini wizard modes as and as like some of the other wizard modes at the ends of some of the other modern sterns. Ben, do you have a clicky pen?

SPEAKER_03 1:12:00

I was gonna ask the same thing. Are you hearing it?

SPEAKER_04 1:12:04

I have a it's my fidget, I will put it down.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:06

It was coming through quite loud there towards the end. I do want to add, I love the mini wizard modes in this game, but the biggest thing, even on the progression side, that that I would I would knock this game down with, a, I don't like the pro version, and we can come back to that later, but it it's a little wood choppy. So, and I'm gonna ask a question to you, Ben. There are five different missions you have to play. Can you walk me through some of the differences between each of those five missions as to how they're played?

SPEAKER_04 1:12:42

You can tell you the shots are lit in different orders. Sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:46

Okay, cool. Let's just leave it at that. There's no real difference. Like, there's seemingly random. I think one of them has to do with defeating the the the weird tusked animal that that has kind of something unique to it. But this isn't Rush. Rush, every single mode in Rush is a unique little mini-game, which makes it so enjoyable to play, even for progression. I mean, irritating as well, like the the the the orange cone, the the time one, the orange colored one on rush, it still irritates the hell out of me, the one where you have to punch out and accrue time. I can't remember what the name of the man is working man, thank you. Working man pisses me off, but there's none of that in the missions here. And then I'm gonna go even a little bit further in the pro version for encounters. Is there anything unique, Ben, about the encounters? Or is it just more?

SPEAKER_04 1:13:39

It's just more, like every every level one, two, and three, it's just more shots, just more shots, but it's the same thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:45

You gotta get up there and you have to hit more shots. There's nothing really unique about it.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:49

I mean, what would you like to think about it though?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:52

Okay, I'm glad you asked that question because this to me is where the premium comes in and breaks up a little bit of the wood choppiness. Because in the first encounter, you are operating on a mostly flat play field. In the second encounter, you're operating in a mostly vertical. You actually, depending on when you hit the ramp and it and it drops in, it locks the play field at that position. And then in the third encounter series of encounters, it's constantly moving. So if you want to take a stab at it while it's down, you have to time your left ramp shot to do it. That to me, world-changing on this game. The pro felt very wood choppy, especially around the encounters, because it was the same thing over and over again. It was just more shots. Nothing unique about it. But on the premium that I had, man, that that became a timing situation. And crap, I I missed the timing and I locked it at a more vertical position. Well, I'm gonna take a stab at it, it drains immediately. I'm gonna do better next time on the timing of it.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:55

Playing bonsai run every time I played many times, but the premium, the encounters on level three or level two, maybe. Yeah, it was like playing the back glass. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:06

No, no, it is very much like that. My question was like, well, on a pro though, if you don't if you don't have that mechanism or or feature on the game, what would you do? Like it's a flipper in five, six, five.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:21

I'm not saying he could have programmed it any differently. I'm just pointing out that there's no uniqueness to the modes on the missions, rather. There's nothing really unique about encounters, it's just more of them show up. And there's really nothing unique about the multi-balls when it comes to progression. I do know that when it comes to the super jackpots and scoring, it's different, but but I got the feeling, and this is this is my one knock on the game, is that to get to the mini wizard modes, which are fantastic, it it the game felt wood choppy on a on a pro. And now, Ben, over to you. Did you have that same sense?

SPEAKER_04 1:15:59

Well, not having played a ton on the premium. Yes. And when I played it, it was mostly like at the distributor showroom or at shows. In fact, one time at a show and the mini play field was like didn't the gimbals didn't work, so it was stuck at some angle, and yeah, uh, whatnot. And my memories of that is another reason why I thought I'm gonna get a pro. But so I didn't get that sense. Now, maybe if I knew the premium better, I might have had some of that. But to me, playing through the modes in this game, it's you're playing the cinematics, and so the shots that are lit, at least in the yellow missions, they're really just you can see kind of the next part of the cinematic. The modes in Fall of the Empire are very similar. Sure, there's eight, you know, there's eight shots in the game, and you're just going for the lit ones. Sometimes different ones are lit for different amount of points or whatever, but you're you're really just doing that so you get the next scene, uh, the next part of the scene that you're watching. And it's a little bit like that in the Mandalorian, because these are scenes from the show. Um, that it's not quite as ingrained in everybody's brain like the original Star Wars trilogy scenes are. But I so to me, I that the wood choppings of the missions didn't bother me, to be honest, since there were only five of them after a while, it became background noise, and it was like something where I just start the mission so that when you get into the multi-ball, you're also getting extra points for the mission. Uh, so you can get you can just get through them faster to get to I hate those odds.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:36

Sure. Okay. I don't know. To to me, okay, so we're talking about wood choppiness, right? Or that's what your impression was, right, George? Yes. Okay. I'll agree. I'll agree with George that it does feel wood choppy, but for for me, the reason why it feels wood choppy is because there's no personality at at least at face value. You guys are are very passionate about your wizard modes that I don't have a ton of experience with, and and I'm sure if I did, I I might agree with you a little bit better or a little bit more. But I don't have a ton of time on the wizard modes because I was never going after them. I spilled the entire desk. So yeah, so just like in the with the modes, what's the difference between the modes? What is the slughorn versus the which number are they? There's no real like icon on the insert, no, it it's just one through five. And and what one is compared to four, you have to look up at the screen to figure that out. Same, but but it it goes past that. And and what do those modes mean? There's not you're not hitting a certain feature on the game that really correlates with what that portion of the story in the TV show was, or anything like that. It's all just very it feels very generic, is is what I'm getting at. There's no personality to it. And so even yeah, and that moves on to the I guess let's go to the right side first, uh, here on the center of the play field with the encounters. What were the encounters in the show? When you get up to the upper play field, I don't we're about to go through some some stuff, but in in a very short portion playing part of the game, since I only have one flipper on the pro, and I do not care what's up on the screen.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:51

That's really interesting. I'm gonna ask that. I just had this uh you you asked that question, or you said made that statement, and I had an epiphany. Ben, do you know what any of the encounters are like from the from the show?

SPEAKER_04 1:20:07

I mean, there I I remembered the scenes, uh two of them. I I I actually never quite finished season two, seven okay but yeah, like the the first one is uh protect the child, and that's from you know the being ambushed by the uh by the pirates.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:26

But oh, that's the big battle with the with the robot with the the spinny head, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:32

Yeah, and then the second one is is uh is you know catching the jaw was uh the third one is the speeder bike.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:39

But there's but there's three parts to each of those. This is like we gotta get through level one, two, and three before you get to each one of those things, right? So there's each one of those one, two, and three things has a different scene and a scene that's still a lot of the same, probably uh uh the of the same episode, I'm guessing.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:00

It's just one of the things it's it's just it's you're just progressing the scene more. Yeah, okay. It's one, two, and three. And you're right. When it comes to the encounters, it's of the the between missions and multi-balls and encounters, they're the ones where you're kind of except for the intro before the ball drops in, you're not really watching the footage because you have to play that.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:22

Oh, yeah, you gotta play and you gotta play quick.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:23

Oh, yeah, and you gotta play quick. So so the the fat it it is perhaps not a strong point in the game, or it's harder to defend anyway that the encounters aren't wind choppy because you you can't you can't really enjoy too much of the like the assets that come on screen or the sound. I mean you can see the sound if you can hear it. If you're playing on location, you're you're probably not hearing a lot of, and that is a shame because this game has an absolutely excellent sound package. It does.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:52

No, I and they got a lot of different assets and clips from the show. I'm just saying that they they didn't maybe necessarily use them properly because that my next point here is the razor crest multi ball. So, what are the three different razor crest multi balls? Well, first off, the number one I do remember the numbers on this one because the multi balls happen so friggin' often on this game. So the first one is spider uh because that was a razor crest thing, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:25

So, yes, the ice spider scene early in season two, and if you're even if you if you watch the show and you were even just into it, even a little bit, that is a memorable scene.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:37

Oh no, it's it's totally a memorable scene, but how is it why is it called Razorcrest?

SPEAKER_03 1:22:44

Because they crashed the Razorcrest, and the Razorcrest is they they uh before before they were saved by the New Republic, they almost that giant spider came in and almost killed them inside the razor crest. So the the razor crest was in that particular scene a massive part of that entire scene.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:04

Okay, harder to defend on the other two multi-balls. Sure.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:08

That's where I'm going with this. Uh so the next one is pirate one pirate. No, we maybe I screwed that one up. No, the second one is the TIE Fighter one, the jetpack. Jetpack, jetpack multiple.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:21

He's on he's on a jetpack, and and moff Gideon is in uh is in his tie fighter.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:28

Okay, so what does that have to do with the razor crest? I don't remember. Yeah, that's a good question. Okay, all right. Next one pirates. Okay, pirates, where they're on the train with the yeah, they're on a train on on a planet.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:40

And the perhaps they're called razor crest mode simply because you have to hit the razor crest target to call a cut.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:46

Okay. Sure, but where's but we're we were talking a little bit before about how the immersive experience of the thing the theme on this for the wizard modes, and maybe exclusively the wizard modes.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:02

Yeah, and the last one's uh sorry, and that one's precious cargo. I it's been so long since I've played it. What is the mini wizard mode for uh precious cargo? What it I'm assuming that takes place on the Razorcrest.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:15

It is, I believe actually, that's the one, or am I confusing it with the Encounters one? The one where Luke shows up, Luke Skymarker. But precious cargo, I think it's that's the one where they're infiltrating. Mandalorian joins the kind of that little oh at the end of season two of thieves to try and you know to try and break into that into that ship.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:38

Okay. But I I don't know, but but mercenary crew. This is like a a virus in a way of just the genericness of the game, even the even the names of different things. Well, you have a hunter and encounters and an ambush, and what does that any of that mean? There's no way to distinguish any one title from another title, and like, oh, well, the amb like it's easy to confuse ambush with encounter, like if I'm just reading it on a sheet with a few. Oh, a mission ambush encounter, or I'm trying to explain to a new player how to play this game, they're gonna their eyes are gonna glaze over, man. Like it's it's tough, like just with the the language used, there's no there's no identity to this, uh to like what's in this this game. What's what's like I the the base structure is there, like I'm not trying to tear no Dwight completely down, but a lot of it is just surface level stuff that doesn't go any deeper than that, and and it's not memorable.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:50

Ben, what are your thoughts there?

SPEAKER_04 1:25:53

Well, I mean for me, I just I can't really argue with uh your your logic about like how the how the play field inserts are labeled there and and how kind of disconnected some of the scenes are or or whatnot. I to me you're you're playing sequences from the show, even if the play field elements don't kind of always necessarily line up with it, right? This is not a play field like like some games where shots are labeled by like locations or with characters, right? Fall of the Empire is a there's a character associated with each one, or locations. They don't all need to be like that either. No, but this one definitely doesn't have that, and so you you you're you're kind of you're left with well, I I still gotta light shots and have everything kind of interact with with the player to go with the mode and the cinematics that are going with whatever mode is active. Um, and I and I have to give Dwight props for some of this on this game because this game has a spectacular light show. Oh, it does compared to a lot of other modern sterns. I I will say even the times when the lights kind of go out too much, and you're like, where the is the ball? Sure, especially when you earn an extra ball and it drains while you're earning the extra ball because the lights go out. Um, the but like the light, you know, the light show and the sound and all that stuff is expertly done. And to me, combined with the cinematics, is enough immersion to make this one at least successful for me playing at home in my you know quieter environment where I can really get just just drawn under the glass.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:42

I wanna I I wanna throw something out, Paul, because I I understand what you're getting at, but is it that you've spent more time on Harry Potter and that has now raised the bar in terms of immersion?

SPEAKER_05 1:27:58

Listen, I had I had some harsh words for. Harry Potter. My my ship has been turned around, but I also still don't care about that game.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:05

Yeah. And that's fine. I just everything in Harry Potter has a beautiful uh bit of immersion that you didn't realize.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:14

No, yeah. It it took me, we had like one very short, awkward for me night uh on it, and that wasn't nearly enough time to make a true judgment on on that game. I have a lot more time on on Mando, and I'm I am being like overly harsh here. I I I want to remind that I said that much earlier in the episode that there's no pinball machine that I hate, but there is a lot of like forgetful, like I I don't ever remember what I don't care what mission that I'm going for, right? Right, because it doesn't matter. Because it doesn't matter, yeah. Yeah, I do very slightly care which razor crest that I'm going for, not two. And I don't do encounters, so I just don't. So there's one third of the game, according to the lights on the center of the play field, that I don't care about anymore because it's it's wood choppy and it's not rewarding. Um and then the top part of the the mission stuff, and that's it's just start one, it doesn't matter. Get get get through them. Oh, okay, we gotta get through the whole we gotta chop down three trees today. All right, cool. And then the other one is like, okay, be careful and and start this one and these two, maybe not that one though.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:41

And Ben, I really like what you said there about between the sound and the and the cinematics and then the lighting, when it all comes together, you feel immersed in in the Mandalorian when when when you're playing this.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:56

I I feel immersed enough. Absolutely. Yeah. This I mean it it might have been a challenge to try and work with uh what assets they had. And again, they were developing this while the second season was being displayed week by week. And so and they would say, and I think it's in the making of video where Dwight said it on podcast, like when the episode were to come out, like they would all sit down and watch it together, and they'd go, Whoa, okay, what are we gonna use in that episode? Can we use this? Can we use that scene?

SPEAKER_05 1:30:29

And and uh such a massive challenge to figure out how to make a game for like a thing that's not done yet, like you have no information on it. So I have yes, I have my criticisms, but I think a lot of that is due to the relationship between the licensor and the manufacturer.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:54

I think so too. My guess is structurally, they had to to build this in a way that allowed for content to be added later that wouldn't necessitate any structural changes. So you you figure out things and then you just you just add the the content and the call-outs at a at a later time.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:11

That's probably why everything's so generically labeled. Yep. Of well, what is that? That's an encounter. We probably can't call it anything else, because that might be a different thing, and and maybe the licensor just shut it down immediately, where they're like, Oh yeah, you can't you can't call it that. Sure. You can't.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:35

Okay. So maybe some licensing issues, and as you pointed out, Ben, the show was still still being published or coming out, and they were including the second season into this game. And the only way to do that would be to, I think, to design the game without incorporating that content into any of the specifics of it. You need to design an architecture that's universal, and then you can just add that content later as it as it becomes available. I think I think that actually explains a lot about this game. But Ben, once again, as you pointed out, it doesn't mean that it's not immersive. It's just not, it's just not as as integrated as, let's say, Harry Potter is. Or I'm even gonna go further and go back to Dwight, it's not as integrated as Dungeons and Dragons is, which is not something that had new content coming out that Dwight had 20 years of experience playing, or 30 or 40 years of experience playing, that he was able to incorporate at such a unique level across each of those. Like there's there's a mode in that game which is fantastic about a dog taking the potion that you went for in Dungeons and Dragons. And man, as I'm playing it, I'm like, oh my God, this is exactly the kind of shit that my DM would put us through, and you'd very quickly have to go do it. And it felt like I was I was in a hurry up, like we were all running to go catch the dog that took the potion that we needed. And if we failed, man, that sucked. We didn't have the potion anymore. And you don't have that in in The Mandalorian.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:05

Yeah, what's your favorite?

SPEAKER_04 1:33:06

If we're gonna if we if we're gonna praise the if we're gonna praise Chase the Dog, we do have to give credit to Elizabeth Giske because I'm pretty sure she created that mode. Okay, yeah. Dwight's game and leadership, but I'm pretty sure Elizabeth is the is the one responsible for Chase the Dog. So great. It's great. Oh, it's tons of fun.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:23

Yeah, but and once again, uh it's a mode, right? Like that, and and you have rush behind you with the topper, which is such a cool topper, by the way. But every mode in Rush is entirely unique to me. It it it was such a massive win for for for Ray Day and the team involved in that to have every single time you play the game and you enter a mode, that is a unique mini mode that is entirely different from every other mode in that game.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:52

You're not wrong, but I'm glad you brought that up because it's an interesting comparison there. Rush, kind of like Mandalorian, is they're both games where casual people who step up and and try to play have no clue kind of what to do or how to do it, even sometimes when getting into modes. What do I know? Sh what do I do now?

SPEAKER_03 1:34:16

Why is that disc flashing in different colors?

SPEAKER_04 1:34:18

And I don't know. It is part of what I what I also love about Rush is how different the modes are, and just I mean, the depth is crazy. I love it. Mandalorian is one where I I knew I hadn't seen tons of the show when I first played it, and and then caught up later. But I would step up to the game at the parlor, and you know, it was the pro, and I would like I would play it, and I might have a game that would go on for a few minutes, and I would come away with like no points, and I felt like it like did I get into anything, despite all the stuff being on the play field, uh like the inserts uh covering the different modes, even if they're just numbered in some ways, it's not immediately obvious how you do a lot of the things in the game. And some of the best modern games are very good at kind of guiding you through it a little bit, right? Guiding you through it, but not holding your hands. Oh, yeah, yeah. Or and not doing nothing. Like Rush is kind of a game where boy, it's it's on the screen if you get your binoculars out and look at this screen while you have the ball trapped up. But and this is this is one Mandalorian is another one where well, you gotta somebody's gotta tell you just a little bit about like how to how to start certain types of modes and how to start the multipliers, and just that little bit because I I would I would do these Friday night four strike tournaments at the parlor. People would pick Mando and I would groan. Oh, and I would always get my my butt kicked, and then at one point, not in a tournament, I asked the the owner, what am I doing in this game? What is how do I start these multipliers? And then he just he splay he explained for 30 seconds, not even that, 10 seconds, like how to hit Boba Fett twice. Okay, when you get to scope, you know, it's the blue lights, just hit one of them, and then Hunter is in the outlanes, and you just hit the orbits, and all of a sudden, then now then I unless I was playing him or another really good player that was coming in for the for the tournament. I never lost on Mandalorian because once you know how to do that golden triangle, you you can do it. And the if I have to knock this game for something, it's that it's it's very obscure how you get to the things that that you need to get to.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:40

Okay, shoot the center.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:42

Well, yes, and now now everybody knows now just shoot the center, and things will keep happening. Center. But I I'm one where I step up step up to a new game, I just want to hit all the ball paths. So I start becoming obsessed with I haven't hit that ramp yet. I'm gonna hit that ramp.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:57

Where's the ball gonna go? Where's it where man? No, I like playing that game. Where's the ball gonna go?

SPEAKER_03 1:37:03

We're approaching here. I I think we're we're just about to hit the end. And I feel like we've gone uh I I feel like we we've addressed the majority of the issues. Have we missed any of the major issues? Ambush. Okay, let's talk about ambush.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:18

Okay, everybody skips it.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:21

Well, not Carl D'Angelo. Carl D'Angelo put up almost a billion points in in ambush and showed everyone that that there was a real opportunity to destroy everyone in competitive pinball if you just focused on ambush.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:34

Carl's an idiot.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:36

Well, Carl is Carl, and we are not Carl.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:40

True. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:42

We are not Carl. But there's if you build up ambush, there is an opportunity to put I love that. I'm sorry, I'm gonna just stop for a second. Carl's an idiot. Got it. No, the reason dads does not sanction or approve that message in any way, shape, or form.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:59

I really want to because Carl's game is on its way to my house. And and yeah, you got a Winchester.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:06

I'm very jealous. I I want to play that game so bad, I have no idea where I'm gonna encounter one, though. Well, Sacramento. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:14

So come on into the arcade.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:16

You said everyone skips ambush, but there's points in ambush. There are points in ambush. It's tough to get to.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:23

Right. But the problem with ambush is that if you don't finish it. Like, okay, so if you get into like a mini wizard mode, or even uh let's let's dial it down even more. Okay, let's let's go way more casual. If you get into a multi-ball and you get a super jackpot, that's that's pretty big points. And and a little fanfare, maybe a little light show, some some graphics on the screen. I'm talking generally in in any pinball game, not necessarily specifically for Mando, right? Okay, well, what happens if you don't get to the super jackpot? Let's say maybe you played the multiball for a while and you didn't get to the super jackpot. So that means you got nothing, right? I mean, you got no, you got absolutely nothing for that whole time that you played. What what the score that you had before you started multi-ball, since you didn't get to super jackpot, that's your score now.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:23

Not that the case, got it. That's oh, that's not the case for multi-ball. Well, that's the case for ambush.

unknown 1:39:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:30

Is that you have to hit a series of shots? You have to finish it. You have to finish it or you get nothing. You get nothing. Okay. But if you do finish it, wow.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:40

Well, you can finish it without wowing either. True. Very true. Yeah, you you can kind of limp through it. Most to get through it and get it. And most people just don't want to play it because it's it's very, very challenging, and it's not yeah, I I do either just most people are like, I want to get out of this and I want to get back to the regular game because it's is it's too hard to get massive points, and I'm probably gonna going to get nothing at all. Like if if there was some partial points in there, then it then more people would play it. But there's it's either all or nothing, and the people would just rather skip it.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:22

It's risk reward, and there's there's too much risk. There's too much risk and not enough reward. Uh well that the reward's reward's there, but there's too much risk.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:34

Yeah, okay. I could see that. So I I don't know. That's that's it. Like any anytime that somebody's like, oh, I hit that horseshoe again, now everything's flashing, flashing white. Just trap up, skip it. Just time it out.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:49

I I always do hate that in a in a game when when the the strat is just to to time it out or skip something.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:56

And I hate that too, man. Like I uh don't get me wrong. I I the reason I'm being so critical of of all of these or playing the bad guy, and once again, I don't I don't hate this game. I know too much about it to hate it. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:11

I have I have absolutely lost on Mando and competition by risking and trying to go for ambush instead of timing it out. But I just don't I just don't like to time out. I just I don't know. No, I guess. If it's running, I'm gonna play it.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:26

Yeah. Okay, so here's the I I would say the final question, and I I Ben, I I don't want to throw you under the bus here, but you have a lot of games, and you're defending Mandalorian here as uh as as maybe getting a bad rap when it doesn't deserve it, but you also just got rid of your Mandalorian. Why did you choose Mandalorian on this? I mean you got Jurassic Park, you've got the new Star Wars Rush, you've got oh my god, I love King Kong, and then you've got Led Zeppelin, you've got Led Zeppelin behind you. What made you choose Mandalorian?

SPEAKER_04 1:42:05

Well, there's a few different reasons. Um one is I turned over a lot of my lineup in the last year. Okay, so actually, Mandalorian was one of the ones that I had had around the longest. You know, I'd had Jurassic Park 30th longer, but that one I hate to use the term. It's it's kind of bolted. Yep. And yes, you still get dibs when when the time comes for me for me to sell it whenever that dip I might might be when I'm dead. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:31

But okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:32

So I'd had it a long time, and some of it is, you know, from for all the content in Mando, it's actually not as deep as a lot of other games. It's more Brett. There's a lot of different things you can play and start. Um, and but the the the depth isn't compared, you can't compare it to the depth of a game like Jurassic Park or Rush. Uh um, in terms of just if you really are going to play through everything, there's no way you can do it in less than a certain amount of time. But you can kind of plow through the missions, especially if you don't care about like maximizing them, the you know, and the multi balls and other things in Mando. So I had seen everything by the by the time I was ready, and something had to go to make room. But I will say, you know, I'm here to defend the game, but I've already said it already. But this is the way it was just a little bit disappointing after the epicness of the three modes. Yep. And once I had experienced it, even though I hadn't beaten it all the way, it was like, well, and it became I'm only really playing it because I want to complete it and get the insider connected achievement for finishing this is the way and earning the signet. And and like I said, I did do that the day before I sold it. Um, and then it was like, okay, well, and then after that, it's like then I'm really just playing the game to get to one of the mini wizard modes because those are fun. And and I I'd done that, and I'd done that enough. But push comes to shop, I would still have it because it was it was it was fun enough to play, but and like a great sound package. But yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:10

Okay. Next time maybe the the premium or the the the best car LE, and then you get to you get to experience some of those, uh, some of the the other fun changes. It is a good looking LE. It's so pretty. That Beskar is Beskar Silver is gorgeous.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:26

Yeah, that actually might be my favorite armor that they've done from Stern.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:31

Yeah. It's it's gotta be up there. It's it's way better than the armor on Rush, which is just black on the LE.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:39

Or a matte black on King Kong.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:42

Yeah, that's not a fan. No, yeah, I want Brainful Armor. Love you, Keith.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:47

No.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:49

We're not cheating on anyone here.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:51

Yeah, no. Okay. Yeah, sorry, Dwight. I said a lot of I said a lot of mean things, but I don't I don't once again, I I think I think we can chalk all of this up to the the relationship from the manufacturer with the licensor. I think that's a lot of what it is.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:09

Silver also agreeing that they did the Kong L E dirty with with that armor. Yep, agreed. Ben, thank you so much for jumping on and defending Mandalorian. That was it was tough to find someone who would stand up for Mandalorian. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:26

Yeah, so it's so funny. I've owned all of the games and still do at least one, the Led Zeppelin back there, of the ones for your bad rap series. Yeah, I'm like, wow, I could, I could kind of, except for turtles. I'm gonna I'm gonna let Joel stand alone on that one because I guess you're with Joel, but we're all with Turtles.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:45

We're all with Joel. That's gonna be a hard one. I've I mean, so I'm I'm maybe more of a mega turtles fan. Like, I guess I don't have a do you have a tattoo? Don't have a beep open rock steady tattoo.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:58

You don't have a shredder tattoo?

SPEAKER_05 1:46:00

No, but I got my I have my lunchbox that my mom signed in kindergarten. Wait a minute.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:06

If all you guys are fans of turtles, who's gonna come in and tear it up for you? Who's gonna it's still mean?

SPEAKER_03 1:46:12

Yeah, it's still basically two hats. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So thank you again. This was fantastic. Paul, you don't happen to have uh and and Ben, I don't know if you're aware of this, but when we do these shows, we like to end on a on a dad joke. A dad joke, yeah. Yeah, do you have one, Ben?

SPEAKER_05 1:46:32

I do a dad and I don't have a dad joke.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:34

Oh, we are never prepared for the dad joke.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:37

Maybe that's why we're in the basement. It's just making the the listeners viewers wait for us to literally look up a dad joke in front of them. Okay. Hi, we're the we're the doghouse dads.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:55

I've got one. It came up very quick, and I feel like it's perfect. Why does the Mandalorian always win the race? And that is because he has the best car. Yeah, that was perfect, actually. That was that was great. We were just talking about the Arbor. Also, yeah, Ben, you're putting up that amazing Lego, which you showed us beforehand. And in the Venn, uh, we brought this up before, but in the Venn diagram of pinball people and Lego people, weirdly, it's almost a circle. Yeah, exactly. It's it's it's definitely like that. Any ideas, Paul or Ben, why Legos and Pinball somehow go together?

SPEAKER_04 1:47:39

All on the autism spectrum.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:42

Well, it's a spectrum. A little bit. So we're we're we're all on it. No matter what.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:46

Well, everything is awesome. Wow. Is that another follow-up dad joke attempt there? Dad jokes. That one is cool. You know what? You I'm gonna give you a team. Yeah, yeah. Everything's real cool when you're part of the team.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:00

And on that note, thank you, everyone. We're gonna go find someone to raid. Have a great night, be safe, and and obviously don't tell those awful dad jokes like us. See you there. Or do or do. Please do. Yeah.