S2E12 - VENOM Got a BAD RAP with FRISCO PINBALL

Why is VENOM trending at less than $7k for the most beautiful LE from STERN PINBALL on Pinside? Why is there so much hate for the most ZOMBIE YETI "Zombie Yeti'd" art that Zombie Yeti ever "Zombie Yeti'd"? We jump on with stream/podcaster/competitor Hadi from FRISCO PINBALL to discuss why VENOM got a bad rap and why maybe it deserves another chance in your collection or arcade!

George's Info:
Twitch: https://twitch.tv/dontpanicflip
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/dontpanicflip
Email: george@dontpanicflip.com

Paul's Info:
Twitch: https://twitch.tv/bumpernugget
Email: pckardell@gmail.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Welcome to the Basement Dad's Pinball Podcast.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Welcome to Basement Dad's Pinball Podcast, where we talk everything entertainment that's comic books, boring board games, mediocre music, and of course, trash pinball. I'm Extra Paul, and I've got George and Cottie here too. We'll be your hosts for this episode. So hold on to your fan ministers, kids, as we get a heck of a show for you. This is our third installment of Bad Rap, where we discussed a specific modern pinball game that didn't live up to the to the hype, really. Tonight we'll be talking about Venom. The game's got fast locks, a save system, so that you can pick up where you left off from game to game. How come this one fell flat, aside from the theme, of course? And maybe Adi will pick up on this because Hottie's a huge fan of Venom. But just real quick to recap, this is Brian Eddy's sixth release after Mando and Stranger Things, and way after his beloved games from the 90s. But Venom, a theme that only one person asked for, and we have that one person here with us tonight. Hottie, how you doing?

SPEAKER_00 1:42

I am great. Yeah, there is there is no shortage of Venom fandom in me. And when they announced it, I decided I should go buy a lottery ticket because there's no way in hell that I ever think the one IP that I really enjoyed would be made into a pinball machine. You know, Dungeon Carl, Dungeon Crawler Carl is beloved by hundreds and thousands of people now, but Venom is like Venom's like the symbiote like to play in Marvel vs. Capcom. But as a pinball machine, I think I really do think I was one of the only people that was ever clamoring for it. Me too.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

I I wasn't like asking for it though. You were you were like avidly asking for it.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

Yeah, they and and when I heard the rumor, I still couldn't believe that they would spend money on this IP because I'm thinking of the world around it. You've got Spider-Man, you've got every you know, with Avengers Infinity Quest, you kind of included the cavalcade of leeching off the goodwill of the Infinity War saga. Um, obviously they had to go the comic route. So when Venom was announced, I'm like, oh well, maybe they'll do like he'll be a boss and it'll be like maybe based on Spider-Man. But when it was when it was announced that it was showed, it was all Venom, I'm like, well, you know, kudos to me.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

Yeah, for sure. Uh yeah, and the artwork on it is great too. Aside from that, though, that's that's where I'm gonna be maybe done being so nice. We're about to say some wild shit here, guys.

SPEAKER_03 3:14

Yes, we are. Before we go too much further, really quick, Hadi, you come to us from Frisco Pinball. You also have an amazing podcast, uh, Wizards and Warriors. Is that the name? Do I have that correct? Yes. And it's awesome. You just did a very recent podcast on Batman 66, and it's entirely strat like a competition strat focus. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Sure, yeah. So, like you said, I'm Frisco Pinball, creatively named because I live in Frisco, Texas. We just had the Texas Pinball Festival here. It was great to see everybody, George yourself included. I love when people get to come to Frisco, see the city, but more importantly, enjoy a lot of pinball. It's kind of lucky again that I moved from California to a random city in Texas, and all of a sudden they have one of the biggest pinball festivals in the country every year. So I started with virtual pinball during COVID. I first started with the arcade one-up machines. I really enjoyed built building those, playing those, and I was like, oh, look, virtual, you know, pinball's there too. And then I remembered as a kid working in Chuck E. Cheese, playing Whirlwind, and thinking it was the greatest tech ever with that fan blowing on you. Um, then I was like, oh, look at all these digital pinball games. And then eventually I had my own v pin built, standard body, Goonies themed. I started, I didn't realize there was streaming on pinball. You know, we were all stuck at home, and I started doing that. And from virtual pinball, I made my way to IRL pinball, and I got my first pin, Avengers Infinity quest, and that sort of opened the gate within a couple of years. I had five, and now I have six. But from there, I really got into I didn't realize there was competitive pinball, so I started playing in a couple local tournaments, and then I said, Well, I like to do everything zero to 60, so let's just go play an N Disc, which is the biggest competition in the world. And it sounds my butt kicked, but I had a ton of fun, and that led to me really wanting to get more into the strategy, the math, and all the little intricacies of competitive pinball. So, my friend Joseph Landis, I met him TPF one year in one of the tourneys. We created Wizards and Warriors, it's a competitive focus pinball podcast. It started out, you know, an hour or so, then it went to three-hour long podcasts. But then we started doing master classes recently, which have been really fun to talk with high-ranking competitive players and what their strategies are for certain pins. So we've done Rush, we've done Batman 66, we just did a Gottlieb Gauntlet with Colin McAlpine, who is your Texas State champ this year, and that should be back up on YouTube soon. But it's basically like six GotLib games, and it was four this year's NDISC, which had a high-stakes got lead bank. But I love talking about it. When I get the motivation to come up here and get everything set up, the thing with me is I worry that I'll burn myself out on a hobby like I've done in the past. So I try to take my time between going all in and continuously doing it. So when I go to a tournament like TPF in disc, I kind of cleanse myself after and don't do anything pinball related. Oddly enough, I have barely played my pins up here in a long time. The main pinball action I get is at tourneys, which is not a good it's not good advice because you got to practice before these tourneys. However, yeah, so that's kind of where we're at. I've got some episodes planned for masterclass. Hopefully, Jurassic Park is soon, which will be a lot of fun. Star Wars Steve Ritchie, Simpsons Pinball Party, and the stars, Harlem Globetrotters. A lot of people have been interested in doing it, so I appreciate the competitive community for welcoming me and and just being very open with how they approach competing on certain pins in these tournaments. And I I love tournaments. I could I could compete for 14, 16 hours a day, but at some point I do. I'm I'm 44, so it does wear on you a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 7:14

Yeah, those two three-day tournaments. It's just pinball from eight o'clock or 10 o'clock in the morning until well after midnight. That's rough.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

Yeah, you do need comfortable shoes for sure for all of this and medicine, happy medicine.

SPEAKER_03 7:30

Yes. That's always my problem with those tournaments that start at 10 in the morning. I I don't I don't want to self-medicate at 10 in the morning. Yeah, I want it to be like two in the afternoon at least.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

The first tournament I went to, I was like, Oh, this will be cool. Like, you know, I'll get to come back, see my family, see my kids. It started at 10 a.m. and I got back at 11 p.m. I was like, what the hell was that? Do these people not have anything else to do? And then I came, and then I started getting into it where I'm like, oh, I see why. Because you get addicted to the whoppers and sure and the the ranking, and I I've exceeded what I expected of myself. I think I told myself if I ever made top 1000 or top 500, I would be super happy. And right now where I'm at, I just I couldn't ask for any more. It's really hundreds, right? Yeah, I think I'm like 194. I should go up a little from TPF. I just missed the playoffs, but I should get a couple points, and I just gotta fix my efficiency. It's it's in the trash, but hopefully I can get that up.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

We gotta get you down here for for PBJ League for sure.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Yeah, next time in I'm in Colorado. I absolutely love that place.

SPEAKER_01 8:41

I mean, we love having you, man. Yeah, last time I saw you down here was for for Dory Hill, that's our our annual pin golf thing. But that was only uh that was a couple years ago at this point.

SPEAKER_00 8:53

Yeah, it's been a while, but I I highly recommend if you anybody has a chance to do the Dory Hill tournament, please do it. It's so much fun. The Colorado pinball community is absolutely amazing, so kind, but it's just such a unique tournament as well. And you don't really ever get a chance to play pinball outside.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

Yeah, dude.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Uh pin golf of fresh air.

SPEAKER_01 9:15

If you weren't aware, we we a bunch of us Colorado dumbasses haul our machines up into the mountains for the weekend. Uh, I want to say there's like over 60 games up there. There's typically 144 players at this tournament, and yeah, it's all pin golf and it's all at a campsite. So yeah, the rain or shine, too. Right, yeah, or snow. Or snow. Yeah, we've had that. Yeah, but no, it's it's a blast, and it's meant to be fun. And I think I think that succeeded on that every year. But uh no, we need honey back.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

Yeah, yeah, but I can get there for sure. I've tried to I've gone hardcore in the tournament scene as far as going places. I went to I went out of the country for the first time in my life to go to the UK Open. Oh wow. I'm trying to see as many different places as I can, and I think I've hit most of them. I've just got Free Play Florida, the Delaware Pinball Collective, the Beast, uh the Rochester Pinball Collective, and that should be like the big ones. I mean, I did 24 hours at the sanctum with food poisoning, so I think I'm like I think I'm good. I think I'm good on like the finding the rest of them and coming back to the ones I truly enjoyed, like Dory Hill.

SPEAKER_03 10:32

Oh man, I I sorry, I I want to go into the next step, which is proving at least giving justification for why bad venom gets a bad rap. But did did Pinberg tickets go on sale recently? Did did did I miss that?

SPEAKER_00 10:45

They were Saturday, this past Saturday. I logged in at 11. It said sold out. So as soon as I logged in, 276 players, they expanded the field. There is a wait list, however, I kept trying because what happens is people will put it in their carts and then it'll empty it because it uses Eventbrite. So I eventually did get my ticket, but yeah, it was this past Saturday. So if you are interested, join the wait list. You never know. There's a lot of people, and some may drop as the refund deadlines get closer and closer. Sure.

SPEAKER_03 11:15

Awesome. I'm gonna jump into really quick justification for why we're even talking about Venom today. And here we go. Really easy. I'm gonna go to Pin Side and let's just take a look at a Venom Pro here going up for sale at $4,400. Another one just sold from Wild Bout Pins for $4,050. Oh God. And another one in Wooddale looks like it just sold for four forty three hundred. I'm guessing that is.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

And what's remind us all what's MSRP on this game?

SPEAKER_03 11:46

Venom Pro $69.99. Okay. And you typically see, and now that we're post-COVID, you see pros go a decent pro that's holding its value typically sells on the lower side for $5,500. On the higher side, for example, King Kong is probably going for right around $6,300 right now.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 12:07

Just to provide a little bit of context here. Now that's the pro. And maybe you're thinking, you know, the the pro for Venom may for some reason be shit. But the LE for certain, there's no way the LE has dropped significantly in value. Let's just take a look at a couple of these here. Here's a Venom LE going for $7,000. MSRP once again. $13,000. $13,000. $13,000 for this one. You can pick one up in New Jersey for $7,000. You've got another one here in Philadelphia for $8,500. Here's an $8,500 or best offer. And there's a couple of others that are are holding out for a lot more. And maybe some of these have a stern topper. Here's a one, two, three, four with a stern topper and mods. And this is my justification for adding it to the list. When you see the pro going for close, sorry, the the pro in that 4,000 range, right? So we're talking about Avengers, AIQ, Mandalorian, and now Venom. When you see it go for that low, there's a reason. Now I want to go in next as to why the uh why exactly it's dropped in value, because I think that's going to start to give us some some reasons or justifications as to to why it got a bad wrap. And then we have Hottie on here to tell us why it's somehow a benefit instead of a negative and just the market's wrong. How's that sound?

SPEAKER_00 13:36

Sounds great.

SPEAKER_03 13:37

Okay. So before we go too much further, just so that way everyone's aware, this is the coolest artwork ever on a pinball machine.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

Yeah, it's it's it's pretty freaking awesome, man. Like I I can't lie. And this is the pro.

unknown 13:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

Listen, I I prefer the pro. Sure.

SPEAKER_03 13:56

And we'll get to that. We'll we'll get to why that's an an incorrect assessment. Hold on, my head's chopped off. It is chopped off. I feel like the the the camera keeps dropping. You just rotate it up a little bit. Sorry about that. Okay, that's maybe a little high. It's fine. We can show all the all the storage I have on the ceiling. There you go. Just stand up from now on. While Paul's getting that figured out, I I said the pro is some of the coolest artwork. I'm sorry, I was wrong. The LE has the coolest artwork and the coolest side armor. Look at that. It's matching. And on top of that, it's sparkly blue. I they they even gave it a cool name. You have this beautiful back glass. We are Venom on the side. This couldn't be more immersed into the theme. I want to ask Hottie, but actually, Paul, that's our job here today. What's wrong with Venom? Why is it selling for just shy of four thousand sorry for four thousand dollars on a on a pro on pin side right now?

SPEAKER_01 14:59

Well, I I asked my girlfriend earlier tonight. Uh kind of gave her a brief synopsis of of what we would be talking about tonight, and she said that there wasn't really any interesting shots on the game. That was her take, not mine. Uh keep in mind she has only played a pro. I would be very surprised if she's ever played a premium or an LE version. But I mean I'm I'm a tournament player. I I like the scores. I you know, in in the I'm in the same vein as as Hottie here, who I I I enjoy the competitive aspect of pinball much more than the progression or uh storytelling or even game saving stuff that this has to offer. And yeah, there's not there's not really any interesting shots. There's no feel-good shots. Maybe that's a better way to put it. There's no feel-good shots of like, oh yeah, I did that. And it's like, yeah, yeah. Let's keep going type of thing. It's it's just very much of a a combo tron.

SPEAKER_03 16:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

Of sorts.

SPEAKER_03 16:17

Hottie, what do you think about Paul tackling layout and shots? What's what's interesting to shoot? Is there something interesting to shoot on this?

SPEAKER_00 16:27

I mean, I think it has one of the most interesting ways to make new shots with the moving ramp in the middle of the premium and LE. The whole, you know, choose your host, change the game because on the premium and an LE, you can change the shot path. Not to mention the absolute adrenaline rush that is the fast lock system. So while the shots, let's say you're on the pro, are you know the fanniest fan that's ever fanned, you have this crazy system that will keep you moving and hopefully progressing through what is a different approach in pinball storytelling and mode progression. I think that when this came out, you already had an IP that people are like, why would you spend money on Venom? Like, other than me, you know, I understand why, but everybody else, I get. And I understand that this is why it's dropped the fastest, it seems, in all the new modern sterns as far as value, even worse than John Wick. It's not a pin that people can walk up to and say, Oh, look, you know, I hit this, this advances the story mode. You they don't realize you have to hit a combo of shots to end up at a boss fight. It's just not, it doesn't really tell you off the bat, but I do think that on the premium and LE, the shot paths are very cool, along with the different type of mechs. We got a pseudo-very target, we've got the doppelganger with its own multi-ball on the right hand side with the hanging stand-ups, like the one in Mando on the center ramp. And then you've got a couple, you got a you got a gobble hole in the back that's a sneak in. I think there's some cool little shots you can make. Now, again, with the fan layout, it's really hard to say, like, hey, there's a lot of cool things to shoot. It's just five different ball paths. That's why I think the moving ramp and that center area really does make it a lot more fun, as well as the other shots when they're when when they change when they change based on your host or based on where you're going.

unknown 18:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

Yeah. I guess. I mean, I'll I'll say that that was I'll go back to that. Was Andrea's print uh opinion of like there she played the pro. She didn't think there was anything like really there's no wow factor to it. I like the pro. I prefer the pro.

SPEAKER_00 19:06

I mean, for tournaments, the pro is generally preferred because of how fast it is, because the the right, the right hand, second shot from the right is a loop, and it can it just it the pin itself shot, right? Yeah, yeah. The pin itself becomes a lot harder. I've played this in card formats, and I'm like walking up, like, okay, you know, I know what to do. Let me get let me go for the hell's his name, Flash Thompson, anti-venom. Let me get the attabball ready. I'm thinking, oh, I'm gonna get to a multi-ball, and it just like destroys me. I get like three million. I'm like, I own this, I should get three million just by entering my insider connected initials.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

So, like it's cursive owning the pin and then trying to compete on it.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

But it's so yeah, it's so hard in a tournament because it's this is a pin where it rewards you for getting to that next level. There are pins with like with Elwyn, like I'm thinking of like Jurassic Park, you don't have to necessarily get to a very high rep paddock or dinosaur rescue. You can get some good points through some of the other modes. You can get to, I don't know, pterodactyl tower, whatever it is, or raptor multi-ball. You don't have to be in a in a mode, you can get something pretty quickly. But with this, you've got to either pray you get two balls locked by ball one and then you know eventually get to a mini boss fight. Otherwise, you're looking at two ball naked multi ball or three and hoping you can stack carnage with it and go from there. It's very it ramps up pretty, it ramps up really fast score-wise later on as you gain your levels. And obviously, in tournaments, you don't you don't use insider connected, so you're starting at level one, and then if you're like level 99 at home, it's awesome because you can get go straight to null and your shots count were you're you're you're more powerful.

SPEAKER_01 21:02

So there's a huge difference between you know being able to log in and and pick up where you left off and starting from square one. But from my experience, I mean keep in mind we we had a Venom Pro, and I want to say I was telling George earlier tonight, we I think we sold this a little over a year ago, and and haven't had it since. And and when I set it up at our our customers' house, I I played a practice game on it and like cracked two billion on it. And I was like, okay, I don't need to play anymore. This is this is good. But the the tournament strat it that I always remember is toxin team up. You gotta get the toxin team up. I don't quite remember though how to get to toxin team up. Do you remember how to get to toxin team up, Hottie? It's yeah, well, I have it right here. Mayhem multi ball, right? That's gotta be.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Mayhem multiball and carnage multiball and doppelganger. So the three mechs essentially. Okay. Fast locks, your doppelganger activates through the number of infected you hit or defeat. And those are the little stand-ups throughout the play field. Next, like the right scoop, the daily bugle scoop. Um, they'll be lit randomly throughout the play field, and then obviously mayhem multiball is locking it in the fast lock system after you hit a combo or two, and then it'll activate the the green arrows for to let you know where you want to lock. And but that but that's the great thing about this pin is even the fast locks have perks to them or code to them, so it's not just locking the ball. If you look at each side, there's three balls on the left, three balls on the right, and they have little perks, so you can strategize hey, I want play field X, I want extra time, I want you know this boss activated, whatever it is. So I this when this pin came out, it had been either a recent string of or maybe some criticism about code being so light at launch. This code was pretty beefy, like there was there was not a lot, there was stuff missing. Final wizard modes, Clintar multiball, but this had a good amount of stuff to do, so I was super happy with Dwight and team kind of just really making this ready to go. And I think they knew they had to because it was such a whatever tier IP you want to call it, D tier, E tier. Um, you they had to really sell it on why this was going to be a winner on launch. And again, there was also a thousand LEs for Venom, the property. We had how many for Pokemon 750? And that's the largest IP in the world. So this was not this is not a good. They were still riding the post-COVID train, and they probably sold them all to dealers, if I had to guess, and maybe maybe not, but a thousand is a lot of venom to sell. Like, that's just there's not that many venom fans out there in pinball. I just don't think there are.

SPEAKER_03 24:17

So that actually maybe jumps nicely into part two. I want to say uh successfully defended. I would I would argue on the on the layout, like it and not that that was your issue, Paul. You said you said you'd like layout, but it was a really good description as well.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

I'm being a little bit more honest this time than I usually am. Usually I'm just let's let's trash it, you know, we're gonna wreck it. But well, I mean, if I am gonna shit talk it, I and I I can't ask this to Hottie because I know he's biased. George, do you think this would have sold better if it was a themed after Squirrel Girl?

SPEAKER_03 24:50

No.

SPEAKER_01 24:53

Do you think it would have sold the same?

SPEAKER_03 24:55

As Squirrel Girl? Yeah, probably. I would say comparable.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

Cool.

SPEAKER_03 24:58

Yeah. Well, it's Spider-Man. Yeah. Spider-Man's going somewhere. Venom, Venom just had three somewhat successful movies.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

Do you think the value would have held on the used market if this was a Spider-Man pin? I do. I feel like obviously it's a bigger character. And if you just added Venom, yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_03 25:23

That's true. That's true. Uh I just keep going back up. Okay, so Spider-Man, if it's just the name Spider-Man, but this is Spider-Man's anti-hero nemesis in so many different comics. Uh I I I it's in the same universe. It's basic, and and on top of that, Spider-Man's even in it. And you get the Hulk, and you get Captain America, and you get Ghost Rider, and you get Wolverine. This it has all the the characters. We we say maybe it could have been more successful. Johnny Button maybe nailed it, saying, Hey, is it was it just Marvel fatigue at the wrong time?

SPEAKER_00 26:01

What's crazy is this art is my my favorite zombie yeti. And yes, I'm biased towards it, but I just feel his style was so perfect for this art.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

This art package. The game is it's it's it knows what it is, that and that's mainly what I look for in an art package is like, is this trying to be something else? Is there some artistic license here that's not landing? And this lands, it it's thank you.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

And I was worried, and I was worried because there's many different interpretations of venom you could have art wise. There's the old animated style, which is my favorite of the 90s cartoons. There's many different takes you can have on what venom looks like, and I was so worried they were gonna make him goofy or silly or just like this giant beefcake. And it's like perfect, it's the perfect proportion to what Spider-Man is. If you've ever played the old Super Nintendo games, Max Maximum Carnage, you'll see like he's supposed to be a buff Spider-Man basically, and have this just like aggression, and it's um it comes out perfectly in the illustrations here, I think.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

Yeah, and I'll agree. Like that's I I don't know. I normally I like don't care about the art. Um I'm mostly like, well, but what's the gameplay like? This is a very pretty game for what it's like art package, what the art package is about, is what I'm trying to say. So it's I don't know, you along to like right on the coattails of what you were saying, like the art package reminds me of the 90s cartoon. Yeah, yeah. It's it's not the 90s cartoon. I can tell it's that it's its own thing, but it it reminds me of the 90s cartoon. So it like along with that, and there's this nostalgia factor that hits for me.

SPEAKER_03 28:05

And look at Venom on the shoot again, next to the flippers, dead center. This is as badass as as any picture could get because zombie Yeti was given free reign to just make him violent and covered in saliva and goo and it with very sharp teeth. For those listening in and and and not watching, after this gets converted into a podcast, I can't even do it justice. Just just go check out the play field. This is amazing. And what I'm hearing is that it's not the art, so it's not the layout, it's not the art.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

It's the layout, the pro layout cannot defend it's very hard to defend the pro because it's one of Stern's most stripped down pro models, and it sucks because you don't know what the bomb was to keep something in like the changing play field. And I I look at it and I'm like, if there was one thing you could have kept in, it would have been that. I think that they kept in the Carnage very, you know, very tight neck, but I would have I would have scrapped that too, and given the changing play field, because at least then you get the same hopefully experience, and to just have the horseshoe is like just wild to me. It feels it's not as barren as Led Zeppelin, but it's been a long time since a pro felt this stripped down to me.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

And I don't imagine what else they could have done if they had three less pop bumpers in the game.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and what's crazy is the pops are basically an afterthought until they added the mode for it. Yeah, the million pops mode.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

Right, but there's no way to send the ball into the pops. You well, and you can't even see the pops, they're all it's all hidden.

SPEAKER_03 29:52

In the million pops mode, which by the way is a fantastic way to put up over a billion points.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

Um sure, but there's no way to like send it there. You can both orbits, yeah. Right, but it usually passes around or it'll fall into the scoop that's behind there and it'll kick it out somewhere else.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

That's a that's a skill issue thing. I don't know what the yeah, no, I I I hear what you're saying. I had to get a whole new play field because mine was cracking. So kudos to Stern for for sending me a populated LE play field, yeah. But the new play field had this like issue with the stop in the back. So there are differences for whatever reason on the ones that they've built where sometimes it like it'll perfectly feed into there, or sometimes it'll miss it. So it does take some tweaking, but yeah, this pro is very hard to defend. Uh, I it's I I don't know, even know if I want to, but I just wish they had given it a little more budget. However, it's venom. They probably looked at it and were like, look, this is an IP, we gotta sell a thousand LEs, we gotta get the pros out, the premiums out. Let's just, you know, whatever we need to do with the pro to save a few bucks, let's do it because we need to move on to the next one. I feel like was Jaws after this, or I don't remember what was after this. It was it might have been Jaws because this was a fall release, and then I think it went Jaws John Wick. No, Foo Fighters was before this. One it was Jaws and then John Wick, I think, and then Metallica Remastered, if I'm not mistaken. I don't remember. It's something around there. So oh no, Jaws, John Wick, and then X-Men. Yep. Yep, okay, and then Metallica Remastered. Because yeah, X-Men got its feet cut out with that Metallica remastered launch. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 31:34

Okay, so I and and I love that you pointed out the fact that the that the pro got kind of got shit on uh specifically around layout. It just isn't deserves it, yeah. Yeah, it deserves it. The tagline of the game was change the host, change the game. And the tagline didn't apply to the most prolific version of the game at all. It was the sales target. I mean, you can change your perk, but yeah, but you can't change physically the game the way the premium and the LE change.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

Right, and what's crazy is change your shots for the the mini modes. Yes, you well, what's crazy is what I'm sorry, hold on, wait, wait, wait. What do you think depending on the the host that you chose oh at the beginning of the game that would start your your you would uh start go into okay? I picked this host, we're starting the game. I I just plunge the ball, and now I have some mini modes going. Where your mini mode shots are depends on that's not the same thing though. No, no, no, no. I'm not gonna go. The challenge's not the same thing, but you said nothing at all. Nothing.

SPEAKER_03 32:42

Well, it doesn't physically change. Okay, got it. Thank you. Thank you for for sticking up for the game.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

I listen, I think Venom appreciates that, Paul. I'm I'm sure it does, but I I listen, we uh we know what role I'm playing here, and if you hit that left side of the horseshoe on the pro, uh yeah, yeah, the left side of the horseshoe, you're dead. That that is a the way that ball feeds out of the right side of the horseshoe, it will kill you pretty much every time. And maybe that's the biggest sin that this game has to offer in my mind, because if I have pretty much exclusively have experience with the pro, is do not punish a player for making a shot.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

That's what they're learning on Pokemon that they had to fix. But you know what else is funny about this release? It was such a new way to experience the play because the flippers were either lower or the way they were angled when everybody received them, your shots weren't going to where they normally would go, or how the standard spike twos were angled. So when everybody got it in the owner's thread on pin side, they're like, Is it just me or did they change the angle of the flippers? And the reason for I think the reason they did that is because of the way the geometry of the upper play field. Grant, there's again nothing on the lower play field, but the way your shots had to go. Um, maybe they changed it because it was too easy to loop the center ramp on the standard flipper alignment, but it was a much different experience out of the box that I had played versus the rest of my spike twos.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

They they also just do that a lot on a lot of releases lately. So we one of our not me, I didn't choose to do this, but with Pokemon, with the new release of Pokemon, we raised the flippers up a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 34:40

Really?

SPEAKER_01 34:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:41

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:43

I noticed an issue. And now the center shot is like way easier to hit than it was before. Listen, we want to make for Pokemon, especially, we want to make this game like as approachable as possible to newer players. We're not here to talk about Pokemon though, but like, yeah, it's Pokemon is the mass most massive theme in all of the world ever. And there's not enough people into pinball, so if they're willing to put quarters into a game and they enjoy it, maybe they'll come and play a different game and come and play in a tournament or something like that. Like that's that's the idea of why we raised our flippers up on Pokemon. But maybe you should do it about them too. Who knows?

SPEAKER_03 35:29

Did you end up doing that, Hottie?

SPEAKER_00 35:31

On yours? No, no, I left everything stock. I like to only think I do is add cliffeys, jack up the legs so it's a little steeper. And yeah, with this one, going back to your choose your host, change the game. They did that, you know, on the pro with the code, obviously, changing your host. But what's crazy is the the intention and decision to lock you from being able to change hosts after you do it once. And it's in in Dwight has come out and said in the forums too hey, this is on purpose, and I think I understand why uh to sort of force you to try other features, you know, doppelganger multi-ball if you're on the premium in LE. I don't know if I agree with it, but it was such a great to me, a great approach to having RPG elements of leveling characters which fed into DD, which was supercharged on its release. And I'm so glad that they started with Venom being given this sort of experience level system. I do always think about if this had had a traditional story mode, it would it have how would it have been played? But there's so many characters in the Venom world. I do think that this was a very nice, approachable attempt at getting everybody in and making it make sense. You know, lasher, scream, all of that. Uh, it's hard to fit all that universe into a pinball machine and have it be a cohesive unit.

SPEAKER_03 37:10

Yep, sure. Well, let's let's dive into that. Let's talk about how unique the the game, the rule set on this game is. And is that potentially why we're we're sitting at 4,000 for a pro and 7,000 for an LE is to talk a little bit about what makes this so different. There they there are isn't a standard story mode. In fact, all you have are mini modes and and the goal of filling out this little grid over here with a a series of hurry-ups that that are referred to as mini modes. And of course, exacerbated with this hurry, or what is exacerbating that the hurry-ups to make it feel even more hurried or the the the player harried is the fast lock system, which is kicking balls out to you quickly. You have very little time to think. You you have to you have to you have to have all your shots playing. I I want Stern to bring back the fast locks. I I think the fast locks are fantastic as well. But is the fact that they're that this game kind of bucks tradition in terms of of of modes, or like let's say Mando, there's there's getting to the the upper play field multi-balls and and five different modes, and it's very clearly laid out. This just doesn't have that. This has these a series of hurry-ups, a leveling system, and you have to wait until you achieve a certain level, and in order to qualify certain higher level modes like riot, agony, phage, or lasher, or if you want to get to null or whatever comes after.

SPEAKER_01 38:43

And and the common player isn't knowing how to get there, or even if they did, probably isn't getting there.

SPEAKER_03 38:51

Sure. So is that it was this too jarring in some way, or still to this day too jarring?

SPEAKER_00 38:58

This is too experimental for here's the the argument for and against. Against it's too experimental for the casual player. You don't get up there and everybody tells you as a new pinball player, don't double flip and shoot for the flashing lights. There's a million flashing lights on this because you have different combos that you can make. So you have to put it in your head, hey, to get to progress, I have to hit a solid colored light, yellow, blue, white, but I have to hit them in succession. And there's nothing that really grabs you immediately and tells you that. I haven't checked the LCD in a while. I'm sure it's there, I'm sure there's something that guides you a little. However, the argument against is you have a very low-tier IP, you have a very tough layout because of how fast it is, and then you have a system of progression that is not very intuitive. And if you're stepping up and you're playing this for the first, third, fifth time, you're like, I think I know what I'm supposed to do. I think I figured out like how I'm supposed to get to the boss, and then you add a leveling system on top of that. Yeah, forget it. It's four thousand dollar pros all day. However, for it, I think that this is one of the few pins where they could test this system out and see if it would grab enough of the pinball demographic to add it parts of it or even big chunks of it to later pins, like you saw on DD, right? And John Wick and even Jaws with the collection of teeth. Like I think this was a good idea. I think they had a timing. Yeah, I think it was a good timing because they still had the post-COVID pockets of the pinball buying community. But this was it. Like this was this was the last time that the pinball community was going to sell out, sell out, so to speak, the LEs based on the fact that it was just an LE and then it was a stern. Because after this, it was like night and day on everybody started pulling back because other companies started putting out great pins. So this is not this is not some pin you could tell a new buyer, put it in your home. I just I wouldn't recommend it because it's so different. Now, as they get into it, the fact that there's so many different ways you can play it, especially without progression, you could do it with no save progress, excuse me, not progression, without any save progress, and try to get to not just null, but then the Clintar multi-ball, which is activating certain features that exist on this pin as the final wizard mode. Like it's more of a challenge. There are time modes, impossible modes where your flippers just die after you hold them too long. And that's in one of the boss fights, spoiler alert, they do that portion of difficulty where they say, you know, don't hold up and trap, otherwise, your flippers will die. So there's there's just so much in this that is never going to be seen because it's hard, because it's not intuitive as far as telling the casual player this is the story. It's actually grids. The grid is the story, which is crazy because you would never sort of think, oh, my 2x playfield is how I advance, or what plus one X play field, or 2x brand. You know, yeah, that's not that's not normal.

SPEAKER_01 42:29

Even looking at the uh the playfield art here, I mean, you have Ryan, Agony, Fage, and and Lasher. And I'm looking at as a as a a pinball player, even, and I would imagine as a new player, I would look at those as far as like, well, they I they clearly have lights, you know, but underneath them or or you know, around them to tell me that I did that or I it's flashing, I need to do that now. But none of that, based off of what you said, it's none of that, it's all the grid underneath it, which is just your extra time, your 2x scoring, and that's it's wild to think that your perks are the story.

SPEAKER_00 43:11

Yeah, it's wild to think that your perks are the story mode, and then when you finish one perk, one line, and move to the next one, you're thinking, okay, because the per average player doesn't realize if you complete that square, that's what you get. Eventually they get after the first or second time. But then the thing, another you got to finish another line, and then that's how you advance to fight the bosses, yeah, which is crazy because the boss fights are so fun. The animations are so good. There's a light attack, a heavy attack, a special attack, and everybody gets their own special animation. The art team and animation team that did the L C D is they did such a phenomenal job, and it sucks that it's all locked away behind this first buffer of confusion. But once they get past that, man, this is a really, really Don't pin.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

So here's my other problem with that though. You said as soon as you get into a battle, I was I was briefly discussing this with George earlier on the when we were riding over here. Um once you get into a battle, I I think after so I I played the hell out of this game like when we first got it, and and I unlocked all the you know unlockable characters right away. And then the and then we got a big code update that beefed up the difficulty on everything by a lot back in the day. I I remember like I I unlocked all the characters and then we got the code update, and I don't think I ever beat it beat no since then because it became so much more difficult. So how when you get into your like one of your initial battles, let's say we're just battling riot here. How many how much time do you have? How many shots do you need to hit to to defeat riot? And how much time do you start off with?

SPEAKER_00 45:05

Uh well it depends what level you are, obviously. The higher level you are, the less you're gonna be. In competition mode, square one, you're gonna need you're gonna need a good amount of shots. I don't know the exact number, but you're going to have to hit your first shot to potentially activate your special, which is at the Daily Bugle Scoop. But the thing with time is the time shot to add time is not a very risky shot. It's the stand-up right, it's right there. It's the bell tower. So you can decide, okay, one of the first things I do when I get in a battle, depending on what level I'm at, is hit that shot because I know I'm gonna need that extra time. I don't get a lot of risky read uh return feeds from it. So I'll hit that, it'll come back to me. I'll find, I think it's the orange shot is the power shot, your purple is the special. So if any of those are lit, and depending on what perks I have, I'll go for the power shot. And if that's not open, I think sometimes the boss will have a shield up, it's a flashing blue, so you'll or that's the light shot, you'll hit that shot, and other shots will open up. So in competition mode, they're not expecting you to be able to beat the boss pretty quickly. Now, you could focus on filling out the grid portion, which increases your XP extra time leveling, get into a multi-ball, wail on that, and get to level 20 before you know it, and then your boss mode becomes a little easier. I don't think you're supposed to beat the bosses quickly in competition mode, it's a competition, you're supposed to be it's it's supposed to be tough.

SPEAKER_01 46:48

I I get all of that, but like my the the point that I was really getting trying to get to here is that I don't think the bell tower is necessarily lit. And if it is, it's not lit starts off, it's it's not starts off very well. It's a there's nothing really on the game telling you to hit the bell tower. I mean, it's a it's for time.

SPEAKER_00 47:11

It's a flashing arrow. It tells you hit the bell tower for more time on the L C D. Oh, does it okay? It's not all right, yeah. It's not and it's lit at the start because you're going to need that extra time on such a low level.

SPEAKER_01 47:25

You cannot that was that was I just remember that being a common problem I would encounter with a lot of people is like, oh, I just started this mode. Yeah, I bricked out a bunch, and it because I'm just starting and I'm not very good. And then I took all this time to get into the into the battle, and then it's like three or four seconds passed, and and now it's over.

SPEAKER_00 47:52

Well, it's longer than that, but I will say it's lit at the start, and you have to be perfect with your heavy shots at a low level to even sniff beating the boss without hitting that bell tower shot. It takes a lot, oh, sure, and for good reason. In a regular RP, and that's Dwight's influence because in a regular RPG, you're not beating bosses at a low level, and again, I think in competition mode, which is what these are normally set to, in turnees, you're not supposed to. They want you to get to, I think in competition, get to a six-ball multi ball if you can, or figure out how you're going to get the two-ball, multi-ball, and carnage stack. I think that's everybody's experience. I don't know many players that go into a tournament saying, I'm gonna beat Riot, Phage, Riot, Agate, Fage, or Lasher, because it's really hard to do it unless you're a high level.

SPEAKER_01 48:48

No, don't give me wrong on paper. I'm completely with you. Like competition-wise, this all makes perfect sense. Like, you you need to level before you you go into it. No, I I I'm 100% with you on all of that. The problem is that it doesn't feel good.

SPEAKER_00 49:07

Well, it's a compet it's competition mode. It's not supposed to, it takes like 10 shots to activate the time machine and rush. Like, it doesn't feel good, it sucks.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

Yeah, at the same time, it's like it's I spent a lot of time and energy to to try and get here. I was doing good things, and then but you're going the wrong path timed out.

SPEAKER_00 49:28

Yeah, you're doing you're doing the wrong thing in competition mode. That's not in competition mode, in attorney, you're not supposed to beat the boss. Like, if you get that far and beat the boss, you are beating 95% of your other players because the scoring for that will ramp up to where somebody that got into a two-ball multi-ball will have what 30 million, something like that. If you're beating a boss, you're at especially at such a low level, you're hitting multiple shots that are two million, three million each. Okay, so I mean it doesn't feel good at all, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 50:01

Because you're not supposed to be trying to describe where you're losing the interest of the player.

SPEAKER_00 50:07

But this is but you're talking about attorney. If you're talking about home use, yes, that's it sucks at the beginning. That's why they have the leveling system for home players. So when you log in still as you play, it becomes easier, and hopefully, like I've been into no the first time where people putting more quarters in those is my issue.

SPEAKER_01 50:28

What'd you say? Well, I mean, it like from an arcade standpoint, like that's that's strictly my standpoint. I I understand you just said from a home use only uh standpoint, but like what's the comeback factor, right?

SPEAKER_03 50:44

Let me let me explain that to try and explain that a little bit differently. So imagine I just drop three quarters in and I'm logged into insider connected, and and Paul, what you're pointing out is the first time you enable, let's say, Riot at level 10, you may decide to activate and fight Riot. And if you're at level 10 facing a level 10 bad guy, that requirement, that's gonna be a lot of shots and it's gonna be a very short amount of time that first time through. So the the the big question becomes on on location. So maybe not tournament play, just standard location play. Somebody, somebody feels like they got somewhere and and and they were into and out of that mode so quickly. And and is that gonna turn turn that person off to Venom and they're gonna go find a a different game to play as a really good idea.

SPEAKER_01 51:28

Because a lot of people that we encounter are just like, oh, pinball is still a thing. They're like, let alone, oh, I need an account for this.

SPEAKER_00 51:37

I mean, the the the fact that operators were cheering venom as one of their highest earners because of the leveling system interesting is all the evidence I need to say, hey, this is why they experimented with it and it worked. That is the appeal of Pokemon that you know you catch things, you you add things to your account. That's the appeal of DD. You level up. So the fact that people were the fact that the pro was so bad and operators were posting online, you wouldn't believe how high Venom is earning compared to my other pins. I was shocked. I did not expect this to be a pin people came back to. But because they wanted to beat these bosses and eventually beat them and not have it take as many shots, that was the appeal. Someone saying, shit, it takes 10 shots to beat Riot, but if I get to level 50, it only takes a couple shots. Now, when you get to null, it becomes a even at level 99, like null is still really hard to beat. So it can get frustrating there. But these mini bosses, it only takes three or four shots once you're a proper level. Sure. So what is the appeal? The appeal is the leveling system that brings in somebody that wants to get to the next stage of the game.

SPEAKER_03 53:00

So what I really like about that is you're you're bringing back those memories. Even Paul, when you and I were talking about it, if you remember we had Hottie on a two years ago.

SPEAKER_01 53:10

Listen, for uh it's been a minute since I've played the game, but I don't know, part of part of me doesn't I I understand that this is this was a litmus a a litmus test for of swords for Stern to see does this Stern Insider you know progression saving stuff does it work? What what what parts of this uh this system work? What what what doesn't type of thing? I understand that it was there was a prototype of swords, not not in reality, you know. This isn't a prototype game. This is a fully fledged cornerstone game. But at the same time, I don't that turns me off to the game is is that we we're doing a a threshold thing of like, oh well, yeah, you need you need it you need an account in order to really play it. Well, guess what? I can go over to I can go over to Attack from Mars and and blow the shit out of that, and and and there's a toy in there that the the UFO blows up.

SPEAKER_00 54:14

Well, yeah, but you're not earning you're not earning achievements on that. Like the Stern Insider Achievement Program, as has been shown by Xbox Live and PlayStation Trophies, like it works. Like they the evidence is there to show why people would do this, and to add leveling up role-playing elements was their test on this one to see if it would work. And again, with such a stripped-down pro and low-level IP, I didn't expect it to work. And lo and behold, it made money hand over fist for operators. Surprisingly, I did I had no expectation that this would be a success on location, and for some reason it did, which sucks because if it had been a better pro, it would have probably made a little more. I don't think the secondary market would have changed much, again, just based on the license and the timing of the deluge of a thousand LEs plus all the premium and pros that they sold. But I do think it could have been better received overall if the pro had been a higher bomb, if a higher bomb had been included on the pro.

SPEAKER_01 55:28

So like like I'm saying, man, if they had just took out those three pop-upers, and the very target, which is so cool, but man, I would have loved to. It's not very effective. No, it's hard to like when you start Carnage, you're supposed to get the like if you don't hit Carnage and hit that that very target captive ball within quick succession, the code just makes the the Carnage toy reset. It's it's hard to make any sort of headway during that multi-ball.

SPEAKER_00 56:01

That's why people choose Peter Parker, because it's easier carnage shots. Right.

SPEAKER_03 56:06

I want to add in another thought, and and this one I didn't actually I don't think I came into this episode thinking of, but as y'all were talking about the the the leveling components, right? Which I love that progression we got to see from Dwight, which was it started with TMNT, where we got the the kind of the first little bit of leveling. Uh it went to they took it to 11 with with Venom here, and then and then we took it to a 15. I I don't even know what the numbering system goes to at this point on Dungeons and Dragons. But what's interesting is both the Pro and the Premium and the LE uh did not hold their their their value. And here's the thought. I love the the online aspect or the online component of this, and I am absolutely remembering for that first six months how much this game was played. As you were pointing out, Hottie, it was doing very well on location, but I don't see them on location anymore. Now, could that be that with the online saving, with the this progress with goals of unlocking people, is it the fact that there was the the goal of unlocking three characters, and if you have the topper, a fourth character? And once you do that, is it possible that based on how things are set up and how the game operates, that there really isn't a reason to play the game anymore?

SPEAKER_00 57:20

Yeah, I think for the I think for the everyday pinball player, once you've unlocked everybody and beaten all, that's it. Like that's your final block. You're not you're not looking at the screen when it shows you how far you are towards Clintar multiball. You're not looking at that and saying, Oh, that's what I want to shoot for next, because it doesn't really tell you that that's the super wizard mode, like right, that's what you should go for. And there's there's a speed run aspect to this as well, which I'm glad they added because it's such a good feature of the video game community to have it in pinball, especially with it being such so kinetically satisfying to hit your shots in succession and get a certain time. Uh, yeah, this is not one. I think people were trying to get rid of it before the value really tanked. Two, sure, bigger licenses were out afterwards, you know. After this, Jaws comes out and said when, and you want to get that front and center, especially if you have limited space on location. Right. Like, I get why this wasn't kept around as much, but there were also a lot of these. Like, this is not again, this was released at a time when distros were buying tons of inventory, and you see them all sitting on that inventory still. There's still Venom LEs new inbox for sale from distros. So, yeah, like this is one of those things where it was the worst time for this IP to be given such high volume. I wish this had been sort of a like a boot, not a boutique release, but just sort of given less less of a cornerstone release. However, you know, it's a Marvel property, so maybe they thought continued Marvel success, but there's fatigue with that, like the chat said already. So it's really it's really hard to justify why there are a thousand venom LEs. I would buy a thousand if I could, but I can't. So like like, you know, I don't like losing half the value on my LE, but this is also a pin that my kids are gonna have to sell when I'm six feet in the crowd as well.

SPEAKER_03 59:32

So kind of trying to extrapolate with that, then information about once you've once you've because because you have online progress saved, and that is a big part of this game is unlocking these characters, and and it did feel like we saw some some some die out. Would you expect that same thing from Dungeons and Dragons? Would you expect no? I think go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 59:52

No, Dungeons and Dragons is a much bigger property, and it has such a more devoted community than the Venom community. Like, there's not a lot of crossover between Venom fans and pinball fans. I just don't see it. But D yes, the owner's thread is 5,000 posts plus, but a lot of it is the same guys, including myself, like this came out for Venom, or what's this mod? Like, or what's the fix for this? It's not this large entity, and so the DD community, I think, has bigger pockets, bigger reach, and uh they should. It's such a cool the the cool evolution of Dwight's code as it's progressed through Stern has really been awesome to see. He's one of my favorite coders, and I'm just really happy that he's been given the properties that he loves, and he loves Venom, like he's he's actually a huge Venom fan. And so I'm I'm glad he got access to it because you hear people say, Oh, you know, certain designer, I don't know who, but certain designers don't want to work on properties they like because you know you don't want to mess it up, and or maybe you just want to you want you don't want your bias to somehow hinder the potential of that license. I don't agree with that. I think when you love something, you're gonna put even more passion into it, for sure. But I can see the argument for it. So the DD community wholeheartedly will support that pin more than I think there would be a vet. There's just not a large enough venom community. Okay. You find them for me, I'd love to talk to them.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:36

Okay, so to recap, we went through layout, we went through art, we've now talked about the rule set. I want to throw out another possibility. Maybe it's the accessories. These accessories are the coolest accessories ever for a pinball machine. I'm gonna say it right now. So you've got the goo on the shooter on the on the shooter rod. You've got I would I would say probably it's gotta be top five at least toppers that also enables a whole other character in the game, and I can see it behind you, Hadi. You you have this topper. I think I've only seen this at shows, and only when it first came out, I don't think I've ever seen it.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:27

Yep. Oh, yeah, right on on any copy, whether it has a topper or not.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:31

Got it afterwards, but yeah, you have to be on one with a topper first in order to unlock it. Look at this armor, just please look at it with me. It's so cool. Like, yeah, this is great. And then what was this last one here? Oh, right, that inner artwork, which just is more zombie yeti artwork on top of zombie yeti artwork. Like, this is the most zombie yeti zombie yeti has ever zombie yet. This is it, it it's it's amazing. I I'm sorry, I I I asked the question and then I kind of also answered it. Hottie, do you think do you think the accessories somehow brought this game down?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:12

I mean, the price of the topper did the shooter rod feels amazing. Like, as a plunger, some shooter rods are not really that intuitive as custom shooter rods, uh huh. But the venom shooter rod feels so good to like just plunge off. Uh the inner art blades on the LE are reflective mirror blades, yes. So it makes it look even cooler if you don't want the event the custom art blades. However, if you're buying an LE, you're probably happy with the way it looks, but yeah, it's got like the symbiote tentacles, and it's actually a mirror of the play field, and it looks just amazing. And so the topper just was Stern Toppers are priced how they're priced. I know when they originally designed the topper, they had ferrofluid there. Yeah, if you've ever seen the Kickstarter projects that pop up on your Instagram ads or whatever it is, they have these little like desktop gadgets with ferrofluid in. And so when you play music, the liquid goo, the black symbol, will expand and react to the vibrations and the noise. It's amazing. It's like having your own little symbiote on your desk. Granted, if you work from home, it's great because you can play your music and you know it'll react. You can't do it at work if you work at site, but the they had to take it out because it was burning up or something. So, what we get is this digital ferrofluid and the plastics of the characters and the Mandalorian-shaped topper. It's $1300. You're paying basically to unlock Ghost Rider and see the cool design. Is it a little overpriced? Probably, but it does look so awesome on the pin. Like, I just think the way it complements it and the the extra art you get from it. But and the ghostwriter is a character, and his perk is you get the flamethrower unlocked right away. Very cool. And we already talked about yeah, we already talked about how this game has some of the biggest licensed characters. So to add Ghost Rider was was a really nice touch for the owners that ended up buying the topper.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:32

Okay, I'm gonna follow that up then with Venom is as Venom does. I I don't know how to say that. It it it is what it is, and it's it's at where it's at. Would you say for on the pro at $4,400, $4,400, is is it a steal? I'm sorry, $4,050. Let's go with that one. Is is the pro a steal at $4,050, or is it a burn it and just never use it?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:59

I love Penn. Ball, there's very few pinball machines that I will say I don't want to play. Um, 4,000 for any Stern Pro to me is almost a no-brainer. Sure. It's just there's so much you get with the Stern pin. So this is like this isn't like spooky Ultraman where you're like you're worried about that's that's a really good price. Like you're not you're worried about reliability and quality for a Stern Pro at 4Gs, like, yeah, sign me up. Venom itself, you have to again, if you're spending four thousand dollars, you're gonna have to like some part of it. And with the Pro, I think if you can get past the stripped down layout and just enjoy a long, deep code set. Again, there are multiple ways to play this speed run modes, impossible modes. Um, obviously, co-op is kind of a standard now these days, but this has more than one way.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:57

We can do one, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:58

There's more than one way to play this, and for four G's, yeah, a hundred percent. I would add it. I I would really hesitate to recommend the pro because you're missing so much. It's one of the turns that is just so I don't think you're missing that much. You are. I'm just telling you, man, the the shots, the shots going different places is so much fun to strategize and see just where they go. Like it's cool to see it pop out. Like on King Kong, I love the random ballpaths. That's what I get with this. Like a different ballpath, like on Harry Potter. There's just something about the play field itself changing when there's so much packed into a pin already, and to see that world under glass magic happen is just that's why that's one of the reasons I love pinball. Just the ingenuity of these creative designers at at these manufacturers.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:52

So I want to skip the premium and just go straight to the LE because it's gorgeous. Hottie, what do you think? At 7K for a Venom LE, is this a stop what you're doing and buy it now for 7K? Are you getting $7,000 worth of entertainment out of this venom LE?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:11

I think you are. Just if you're a connoisseur of beautiful things, this is this again, it's hard to say you're playing the art because you when you put a pin in your lineup, it's usually covered the sides. But man, it's so pretty, it's fun. For 7 G's, you'll get you'll get to play it for a long time and won't lose as much as you would if you paid nine for John Wick Ellie or something like that. I don't know. At seven, it seems like I'm kind of kicking myself around if I can buy a day one now, but but I can't deny the reason that it's lost its value. It's just not, it's not, as we've discussed, the typical pin approach. And on top of that, with the license itself, well, for 7,000, yeah, I'd I'd take it. I mean, you're not gonna get a different answer for me, bias included, bias, bias out of the way. Now, if it was like a little orphan anti pin LE for 7,000, I'd still say yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:13

7,000 for a stern LE pin. You're you're saying across the board, you'd probably say yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:19

I I look at a lot of them because the price of the used market has sort of returned to a sane sane space. And I there's always a lot of ones I just want to get. X-Men I see for 8,500. I'm like, that's a really good LE price. Um, and maybe I just need to get off the LE train and just start buying the premiums because those are 6,500 or less now on a lot of them. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:43

Get it on the Pro Train, dude.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:45

Or on the Pro Train.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:46

On some of the there's some good, there's some good pros. There's some really good pros for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:51

I don't know. I I feel like there's there's some great pros out there that I feel like a lot of people just immediately burn because it's it's not it not just because of a feature or two, it's not as good as the the premium, and it's just immediately written off.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:09

It's a lot of money for I mean, it's just a lot of money for a toy. Like that's what these are. I love it. You know, I'm fortunate enough to to be in a position where I can have a pin or two, and I understand why it's such a big decision for a lot of people, and really just buy it if you it's almost like gambling. Don't lose what you can't afford. So you know, don't go don't go on a payment plan. These are these are not going anywhere. Go just go play on location if you need to. That's that's kind of my that's kind of my approach these days. You don't need to own everything.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:41

No, something that we haven't really done in for this recording, but that we that we usually do a little bit more frequently is catch up with chat here. Oh, yeah. And uh just from glancing around with with what I've seen from chat, everybody kind of knows what this is, and the feedback that we're getting from our audience on this isn't overwhelmingly negative. Everybody kind of knows what they're getting into. Wolfman is saying, like, the art is nice, that's all he's got. That and that's Wolfman's pretty negative, mature time, yeah. And he'll he'll he'll own that. Yeah, no, totally. But no, it's I don't care why he plays pinball. I mean, listen, and what I didn't tell you is that on the way when George was picking me up tonight here to to head over here, I was saying I can't think anything bad to say about the game.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:41

I mean, there there's there's negatives, as biased as I am, there's negatives about it. The again, the theme is not for everybody, the pro is very stripped down to where it feels like a bear layout. The the progression on telling you what to do and the code itself locking you out of deciding to choose another host, like those there's negatives for it. I get why it's not everybody's cup of tea, but the vitriol towards it, because this is a hobby full of grumpy old men, yeah, doesn't make sense to me. And I honestly think if you just turn your frown upside down and smile while you play it, you'll have a little bit of better time.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:23

Yeah. Well said. No, I I think I think that that might have been the part of me wants to think of that was maybe a I'm hoping it was a backup plan for Stern as they were they were thinking about how the to market this game, right? Of oh yeah, it's it's it's not a theme that people think of. And you know, we're we're it's it's the unexpected surprise uh appeal to the game, right? Of oh, I wasn't expecting to, you know, I I saw a lot of I went to a pinball arcade tonight and I saw a lot of different games. I wasn't expecting to see a venom game. That was weird, but I I put some some games on it and I had a lot of fun, you know, type of thing. You know, that's maybe maybe that's just that's the appeal.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:15

It's a lot you're you're asking a lot for people to pay 13k for an LE, any LE, and unless it's stacked and it's ready to go, like with code, it's it's why people will pay for an LE and be like, dude, there's nothing here. The Walking Dead remastered. I have the LE. The launch has been one of their worst launches ever, and it sucks because it's my favorite code on any pin and it's Lyman's masterpiece to me. You know, other people argue Batman 66 or another. But yeah, but it's like, but for to ask someone to pay that much for venom, and then you know, for them to see it drop almost by 50% in value, it's a tough pill for people to swallow. So I understand the negative feelings towards it, but if you look at it objectively and say to yourself, okay, the reason I don't like it, it doesn't have the traditional progression system that I'm used to in pinball. Yeah, okay, fair point. There's there's no there's no uh arguing against that as a valid point, but overall, is it the worst pin made? No. So that's my argument.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:30

Yeah, no, that's good. What is the worst pin made, Audi?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:33

Oh shoot, man. There was an old there was an old em I played at Pincanati. I freaking hated it. I don't know what it was, but it was like, God, I wish I could remember what it was. I wanted nothing to do with it after I saw it. It was just the worst design and and and scoring system I'd seen. But with EMs, it's really hard to be creative because of the time that they were made.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:57

So I didn't hear what Paul said, but I heard party foul for Mr. J. Crane. Yeah, I'm reading that too.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:05

I don't know how I party foul.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:07

Sorry, what when when you asked what's the worst, you you then said something kind of to the mic directly. Oh, it's Thunderbirds. Oh, Thunderbirds.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:15

Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I haven't played that, but I've heard negative things about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:22

I mean, if you're if you want to decide to have fun playing that game, you will have fun. Um outside of that, then then then you won't.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:32

Okay. This was the third of the bad rap pins we've done. We did AIQ, we did the Mandalorian. I it was hard to be the bad guy in Mandalorian. AIQ, I absolutely brought in my my my bad guy hat on on AIQ. But you know what's interesting is I walked away and and full Alex mentioned in the chat that they just picked up an Avengers Pro for 47.50. I'm I'm what I'm really upset with is Avengers Premium or Avengers LE. And and if I had the opportunity to pick up a pro and at their current prices, yep, I would I would consider pulling that in.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:08

I want a pro. I want a pro. We have a premium at the arcade. I want a pro. Yeah. Okay. So a lot of the feedback in chat that from what I've glanced at here has been not overwhelmingly negative, which is usually how it goes because we get on the the blame train and type of thing. Sure. But is is does that mean that that venom is a much better game than we all realize, and you should buy bye bye? Or do you guys realize that we're George and I are talking to a lawyer? That's what I was saying. He's really good at arguments.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:47

Understands that I will I'm licensed in Colorado. I will come after everybody that I did. I'm licensed in six states. Uh also CNK, I have number 300, which is the first full official appearance of Venom. I specifically asked for that number. I had to pay Zach for it, but it was worth it. I spent a lot on my Venom Ellie. I'm not I'm not blind to the fact that if I ever sell it, I'm gonna lose a ton. I just don't think I'll ever sell it unless for whatever reason, you know, financial difficulties I have to.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:20

But Stern makes a game specifically for you and you belong.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:25

Dwight was very nice to put me as a high score for shoot, one of the modes, maybe co-op or impossible mode. I forgot, but it was a very cool and and Brian Eddie sent me a ton of Venom pinball holders, those little flat plastics that he's like, give these away. He's like, I hear you're a big Venom fan. And Dwight signed his board game that he created for me at TPF, and he said to the number one Venom fan, I was like, That's all I need.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:51

Yeah, that's so cool, dude. Very cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:54

No, it was it was a good for me. It was I you know, I always think about what I would have added to the layout. I think of the KISS pin and how they had the Gene Simmons ball lock. Like, I always thought they would put a the tongue, man. Yeah, I think I thought that should have been like their locking system, but honestly, I agree with both of you. I really wish they would bring fast lock to other pins. It's such a cool mech, as far as not just delivering adrenaline-based gameplay, but also there's perks on it, and like it it allows you to say, Okay, shit, I don't want to shoot the right lock because I don't need those perks yet. I need the left one for the extra XP or play field.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:35

Yeah, I'm I'm on record several times saying that I personally find shooting D D dull. And and and it's because the the ball gets hung up too often or too long. And and what D D really needs in in my brain is a fast lock system. It'd be awesome if they had a fast lock system on D D, but unfortunately it doesn't. Um but I I yeah, it's it's the coolest like that was the the main thing to me. Uh even just watching the initial trailer when the the game came out is that we have this fast lock system. Yep. I think there was what was the other big feature of the game? Was it the was it the the the ass crack of the doppelganger?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:29

Yeah, the Bbl Doppelganger. Right? I mean that is a good BBL.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:39

Awesome. Hottie, thank you again so much for coming on to defend Venom. I I really hope in the same way that we we shined a light on some of these games that got a bad rap, maybe what some of the positives of them are. And and I hope as a result, maybe if if this is a game you were avoiding because you weren't interested in it, maybe you give it another chance at some point and don't just let the crazy sales prices of the the pros, the premiums, and the the LEs right now steer you away from a a game that really does something unique. Dude, four grand for is that is was that the lower end of it? 4,050 was the just sold for Wild Bowl.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:21

Buy any uh spike two for for less than 4100. Even monsters? Easily well yeah, even monsters. Okay, yeah. I don't know. I I I like to buy games I hate and have them at home so I can so I I can learn to play them better. Like I I when I bought my Walking Dead pro, I I was like, I hate Walking Dead. You know, at the time I was like, I don't I don't like this game at all. It's it's an ass kicker. But if I have it at home, I don't have to put any quarters into it. I can play whatever I want, I can set it up however I want, I can learn, I can I can get better. You know, all those things. So it's yeah, monsters, yeah. I I would take monsters home in a heartbeat. How much is it going for these days?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:16

Is it which one? Monsters. Oh, that's a good question. Hold on. I can figure that out. Let's see here. Monsters Pro. What are they going for? You don't see these show up on the market all that.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:29

Yeah, they're they're I don't think there were that many in the end.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:35

No such thing. It's like Guns N' Roses SC or whatever the base version was.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:42

Monsters premium holding its, I assume holding its value pretty well. If we look up here, 9200. Yes, over 9,000 on a premium.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:50

I mean, the more rare it is, that's that's also another thing that'll bump up the value of it. Too much. That's too much. Yeah. Too much for my blood. But yeah, Hottie. Uh usually we I just end up going down a rabbit hole of of uh trashing on a game. And and and and and you made that kind of difficult to do tonight.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:16

That's you know, when was I admitted? 2008. That's 18 years of being a lawyer, but also a super venom fan. And it's very hard for me to objectively step back and say there's nothing wrong with this game, because there is this pin. Sure. So I get the bad rap, but I think if people understand, just get past that first level of progression as far as bosses and see what this pin has for you, especially the premium, because it's got an exclusive multi-ball with doppelganger, and maybe you'll get into the venom world a little. There's a great comic right now, Spider-Man, Venom, and Carnage called Death Spiral. They've introduced a new villain called Torment. The design on Torment looks amazing. You know, life's too short to be angry all the time. There is so much good you can enjoy, and pinball is one of them.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:09

Yeah, totally. Yeah, I'll agree with that a hundred percent. Did you encounter a symbiote recently? Is that why you're so huge now?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:17

I think there's a symbiote named Tank, and he he just joined up. And no, I I needed to pre-COVID, I was in the best shape of my life running like five minute miles or five and a half minute miles, and COVID just wrecked me as far as being lazy. And I was paying for a gym membership, and I was like, I need to start going. And then, like I told George in the pre-show, um, I remembered my high school workout and said, let's just do it. And now I go go on the treadmill, watch videos about comics and pinball, and then go lift and then come home. And I don't feel as lazy, so it's nice. I I mean, I got young kids, I gotta be, I have to be able to uh interact with them in a physical manner and play, you know. So I was like, this has got to change. So if you are out there and you're ever deciding, you know, you about the gym, just take it slow and you'll get there. I was doing nothing, I was barely lifting the bar and now on the bench press, and now I'm much happier with my with my current current weight stack. So very nice.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:24

I think everybody's challenges just finding it. Just getting there. Get to the gym. Continue going to the gym. Maybe not just going to the gym, but continu to continue going to the gym.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:35

Yeah, everybody, you know, your health is something you can't take back. So work on yourselves if you can, and if you can't, just do the best best you can because you only get one shot at this. So or or find a symbiote. Yeah, find a symbiote.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:48

Or find a symbiote. Um Hottie, if somebody wants to get a hold of you, where could they get a hold of you and where could they find you?

SPEAKER_00 1:24:57

Sure. So every social is basically Frisco Pinball. There's a link tree on my Instagram and maybe twitch, but twitch.tv slash frisco pinball, youtube.com slash frisco pinball, frisco pinball at gmail.com. Check out the YouTube for the Wizards and Warriors podcast, is also on Spotify and all the streaming platforms. We will have more masterclasses, more episodes related to competitive pinball recaps, including strategy rundowns, and all that fun stuff. It's just a matter of me coming from the gym and getting the motivation to walk upstairs and start recording or start streaming. But I appreciate everybody that's been welcoming to this community. Thank you, George. Thank you, Paul, for having me on this awesome, awesome podcast. I really enjoy the idea and theme of it. And I think it's so much good content that can be consumed in the pinball universe in this small little niche niche world of ours.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:58

I love that. It's always a good reminder that there's like a very, very small percentage of a percentage that are really into pinball, like we are. Paul, if someone wanted to get a hold of you, where would they go?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:11

Uh pinball Jones in Fort Collins. Just just show up there. Show up. Yeah, yeah. Doing leagues on Wednesdays. Show up before seven. I'll throw you in a group. Okay. No, you can find me on I guess Instagram. I am on Twitch too. It's I guess they're a little different. So Instagram is pbj.pinballjones on Twitch when we are streaming the tournaments andor leagues on any given night. It's PBJ underscore pinball Jones. No dots allowed in in Twitch, unfortunately. But yeah, or just show up. We got a new player from Wyoming the other day. We got some some guest visitors from Montana, too. So yeah, people are coming from all over the place, man. It's it's it's a hip happening place. And honey, we're we're waiting for you to join League League 19.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:03

Hey, Colorado is one of the most beautiful places I've visited. If I could move there today, I would. So hopefully I get up there and get to play and get to see you guys. It was a lot of fun at Dory Hill. Oh, dude, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:15

It's it's been too long. We need to play.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:17

If you want to reach out to me, you're already on the channel. It's Don't Panic Flip. Hit me up at George at don'tpanicflip.com or on Facebook, X, Instagram, all the different socials. Accounts are there. Now we typically end this stream with a pun. I got it set to go. Okay, great. I'm ready. So uh actually, this is to either one of you guys or both. I heard that Venom joined a diet club. Did you hear about this? No, I didn't.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:44

I didn't.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:45

He's now symbilean. Oh god. That was the best AI could come up with.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:51

That's so good. That was good. As a dad, that's a that's a dad joke out of ten.